I 100% agree that America needs to care.
So my question is, what is the expectation people have, with regard to how that care will be manifest?
Soldiers on the ground in direct combat? Does anyone expect that?
And if not that, what will it do? Anything meaningful to stop Russia?
you do know that this is what basically happens when US decides to get rid of a colony
Oh, and I fear that one of the things that Russian aggression will underscore is that the various countries in the world need to get nukes as fast as possible.
If the old alliances do not protect you, and treaties are ripped up to suit, then is the tragic and unavoidable conclusion that you need to get yourself a big stick? I.e. nukes?
Is that what Taiwan needs to do? To at least make China think twice?
The same courtesy? Seriously? The world should allow Putin to do whatever he likes because it already let the Americans do it before?
the Ukraine - Russia conflict isnât something that the americans can win⌠Especially when there was an agreement that the neighbouring states of Russia canât be offered NATO membership.
I recall I was in SF at the time and a group of friends and I were in Castro trying to head out to the protest against the start of the war - we never made it to Civic Centre as it was completely mobbed. I think there was a even bigger protest a few days later where >300k people attended. Yes, a lot of people wanted to go to war but there were a significant number of objectors.
why the selective outrage when I donât see the outrage when US goes to their modus operandi ?
what i mean to say is that why is there a dual standard on this.
The US and their allies dicatate the world media and people get outraged over that , rather seems very simplistic imo
so North Korea has gotten nukes. Mainly because thereâs a known nuclear proliferator in AQ Khan whoâs let them have nukes. Doesnât matter that US allowed AQ Khan to have those secrets, nope⌠doesnât matter at all
No US troops on ground in Ukraine. I imagine theyâll supply weapons/ resources to Ukraine.
Sanctions: theyâll stop the flow of Russian gas to Europe (which will be a problem for both sides, but will stop reliance on Russian resources with money flowing back the other way), Russian banks wonât be able to trade on international markets, and Iâm sure some resources will stop being shipped to Russia⌠any Russian assets in international markets will be frozen, and Iâm sure a bunch of other stuff i donât have any idea about. NATO will have increased presence (boots on the ground) in countries surrounding Ukraine to try to ensure any violence doesnât spread outside Ukraine (surrounding countries are NATO allies). Essentially Ukraine will have to fend for themselves, while international community tries to hit Russia with economic sanctions.
Perhaps you missed the demonstrations all over the world against the Iraq invasion.
More importantly, this is happening now and you are more outraged about something that took place almost 20 years ago. You are acting as if past US crimes excuse the current Russian ones. Thatâs a fucked up way to look at things.
Iâm saying both are inexcusable , just that for US to claim the moral high ground over this is idiotic.
And if you look at the statistics , the US misadventures over the past 60-70 years far outnumber the russian misadventures⌠in terms of the collateral damage , to the extent that it isnât even equitable.
Also lives lost are lives lost. Doesnât matter whether it happens now or whether it happened years back.
Fairly ominous
im not a mod so i cant say this with any authority, but i think your being well over the top.
no one here is defending anything america has done on the world stage, we understand your point, but im not sure why you keep swinging haymakers, no ones punching back.
but this point in time, its about Russia massing troops on the borders of ukraine, Nato and warfare.
America is in the conversation, not becuase everyone is looking for a moral compass, but because it needs to be in the conversation having been their since the break up of the soviet state
im not sure how to appease youâŚbut unfortunately for the world america cant just turn around and go back to watching the superbowl.
if anythingâŚignoring past transgressions of all the players âŚwhy arent other world powers at the table as well, âŚthis has the potential to affect humanityâŚits not a bit of trench warefare for a bit of turfâŚ
we cant look at past transgression and excuse people from the table, otherwise thered be no body sitting at the table.
its a bit like the climate change debateâŚthe hour has past by where we can appropriate blame, we need world action to stop it. yes there are millions of moving parts, but basically, its time to stop blaming the industrial revolution and suggesting the west have to pick up the bill, despite the fact that its firmly grounded in the truthâŚbut every player needs to act.
Okay, letâs get this out there that I am sure everyone will agree on in some fashion.
Britain and Europe raped, enslaved and colonized vast areas of the world. Africa, in particular, South America and Asia are still suffering the repercussions and backwardness of Colonial times in some way, shape or form. Check
America came about from European colonization, natives slaughtered, subjugated and their lands taken and the birth of a Western superpower. Check.
Europe devolves into war twice in the last century dragging her colonies and the new industrial and intellectual superpower in the West. Check.
New Superpower and the West get involved in an idealogical battle with the New Superpower in the east and evils are allowed to go unpunished or proliferate due to these idealogies. Check.
Africa and Asia are left backward and prone to unthinkable conflicts in the power vacuum. Again, idealogical needs allow these to happen. Check.
The superpowers engage in proxy wars due to idiotic idealogies allowing the rise of terrorism, religious fanaticism. Check.
Soviet Union collapses and Eastern Europe is now a horrible quagmire that nobody really wants to take responsibility for let alone help. Left much to their own devices while NATO and the West congratulate themselves. Check.
The new threat is now terrorism and AL Qaeda, Islamic State which had their roots in the stupid idealogical battle between New Superpower 1 and New Superpower 2. Dumbasses. Check.
Cue the 2000âs and the war on terror and Afghanistan and Iraq and the almost total dismantling of Iraq as a functioning states further creating conflict and even more terrorism. Check.
So we can all agree the West are completely and utterly clueless and have made things up as they went along and fucked it up even more. Welcome to humanity, my friend.
Quietly, though. Russia has conducted two operations in the past 14 years that should have raised concern; the Georgian theatre of operation and then the annexation of the Crimea six years later. We can denounce Western influence and the mess it has created while at the same time also denouncing Russian aggression and allowing the West to do so as well. A whole lot of wrongs donât make a right and Russian actions at the moment are not right. At all.
Okay , so there were the
oon after Atal Bihari Vajpayee became Indian Prime Minister, he authorised nuclear weapons testing at Pokhran. The United States strongly condemned this testing, promised sanctions, and voted in favour of a United Nations Security Council Resolution condemning the tests. President Bill Clinton imposed economic sanctions on India, including cutting off all military and economic aid, freezing loans by American banks to state-owned Indian companies, prohibiting loans to the Indian government for all except food purchases, prohibiting American aerospace technology and uranium exports to India, and requiring the US to oppose all loan requests by India to international lending agencies.[64] However, these sanctions proved ineffective â India was experiencing a strong economic rise, and its trade with the US only constituted a small portion of its GDP. Only Japan joined the US in imposing direct sanctions, while most other nations continued to trade with India. The sanctions were soon lifted. Afterward, the Clinton administration and Prime Minister Vajpayee exchanged representatives to help rebuild relations.
US sanctions to India which happenedâŚ
Thing is Sanctions only work when thereâs not enough captive population for the countries to sell their products.
I imagine it will depend on how many countries support the sanctions, but i am not nearly versed enough in international economics to make a prediction on how effective they will or will not be. Iâm confident that it will have dire consequences on countries like Bulgaria that is hugely dependant on Russian gas.
agreed with entirety on this.
what i do mean to say was the collateral damage between the misadventures⌠I could be wrong but the misadventures of the west (w.r.t lives lost) are far more than the misadventures by the russian govt. My grand uncle died in 1971 war , I daresay the lives lost before the Indian army even entered the conflict were comparable to the lives lost in the holocaust (but that obviously doesnât count for much because⌠well yeah , itâs really not worth commenting onâŚ) , You are talking about a regime killing about 3-4 million people (and thatâs being very conservative) during that 1968-1971 period)⌠and the US govt were complicit in that.
I have all the sympathies with the people in Ukraine who are affected by this needless conflict but to even portray NATO as âforce for rightâ is idiotic.
Irrespective of the operations that Russia has conducted in the last 15 odd years, they pale into comparison when you look at the idiocy that the west has done in destabilizing the entire world⌠even from the obama time onwards , iâm not even looking at their misadventures from Bush Sr and before , needless to talk about the clusterfuck that the american establishment has done during the clinton and bush jr years
Why have we not seen demonstrations outside Russian embassies, around the world? Just asking.
ukraine being broke and having no oil probably plays a part