The Corona Pandemic

the anti maskers are my favorite.

its a fucking mask for fucks sake…how does it possibly fit into the orwellian narative.

i understand people questioning lock downs and the administration of a global vacine, i think its a healthy additude to question it and want to know more…i wouldnt say im anti vax or lock down, but im sure as hell going to listen to the debate…but anti maskers…stop wasting our time.

the side issue with Australia is, having done so well (relatively speaking) with controlling the virus (touch wood) any anti lockdown and anti mask, any opposition to policy makes me feel a bit uneasy when i come in and read first hand accounts in here andd read global news feed.

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Anti lockdown for a couple of reasons is understandable.
Anti maskers are just idiots.

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Please do tell me what France’s political leaders have done to create vaccine scepticism.
As far as I know the AZ vaccine is being administered here by GP’s to medical workers and at risk under 65’s. I saw a news article about it and the fuckers didn’t even know how to administer it (btw that’s not the fault of the politicians).

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You are putting quite the spin on this and imo greatly exaggerate the political “grandstanding”. We have not yet approved that particular vaccine for those over 65 either here in Norway, and maybe we won’t, we’ll see. But there was a lack of data and as far as I know, we want that vaccine for younger age group. What’s the problem with that ? You know very, very, very well that the EU for instance, wanted more of the AZ vaccine earlier and still do, and yet you come out with this extreme spin. I don’t get it. You seem to back the AZ company to the hilt for reasons I don’t understand and maybe never will, which is okay, but you don’t have to create an entire saga about the EU rubbishing the AZ vaccine, because you know that’s not true. It was primarily a tooth and claw fight to get more of that vaccine, which you know very well despite saying what you are now saying. I find your post extremely unreasonable and incredibly biased towards everything AZ (which again, is odd).
Macron jabbering about efficiency and saying something irresponsible does not correlate to the rest of he EU or even France in general trying to take a dump on AZ and you know that. You really make little sense when you claim that European leaders were denouncing the vaccine to say the least.

As for vaccine skeptic population, yes, we see these trends in Europe and elsewhere and it is a major worry, but you blaming Germany and France political leadership is eye-brow raising given how the political leadership has fought in panic to get hold of more and not less vaccine.
To be honest, our population also in Norway is very skeptic to the various vaccines, which is a major shame, but has absolutely zero correlation to our political leadership who for instance tries to persuade us that it is safe and so on and so on…

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Maybe what ISMF was saying is there was such a high level and highly publicised spat between EU and AZ and EU accusing AZ of doing some wrong stuff, that the people will now wonder the overall integrity of the AZ vaccine and the company? Afterall, France and Germany are the 2 biggest leaders in the EU so the people might be thinking, first you were all mudslinging and then now you expect me to believe that its vaccine is ok? I am guessing that might be what ISMF is saying?

As for Vaccine Skeptics, I think they are present everywhere. Even in countries with largely compliant citizens, they exist, not always with the wrong reasons but they do exist. Its all a matter of putting aside the different concerns and look at the greater good at times but its really a personal choice that we cannot blame on anyone else, afterall, I think most countries are giving the choice to their citizens whether to take it or not, those not taking it might have more processes to go through in future but yes, we do have a choice.

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The simple fact remains.

The EU threatened to sue AZ for not delivering 40M rather than 80M doses by end of Q1.
As it stands the does AZ has delivered, the EU is barely using it. (irrespective of age group)

From the 1.5M doses Germany has received, they have used just 190,000
From the 1.2M doses France has received they have used just 180,000
From the 120,000 doses Bulgaria has received they have used just 2,000
From the 200,000 doses Belgium has received they have used just 10,000

This is from the FT (slightly different numbers)

If AZ had delivered more vaccines, there is no reason to belive they would not be sitting in the fridge with the other few million. The mere fact there are millions of unused vaccines (during a vaccine shortage during a pandemic) is surely a failure of governments. Thats not spin.

Many people are rejecting the AZ vaccine in the EU given the perception, it is a second rate vaccine.

The Berlin Police Union said
"“Now all of the sudden, because no one else wants the AstraZeneca, they say we can have it,” he said. “It is all still very new, but when others reject something and then it is offered to the police, it is understandable that many colleagues feel burned. And they are worried, there are so many conflicting reports.”

Frank-Walter Steinmeier has also described the issues of perception (and uptake)

“I personally have little sympathy for the reluctance to use one vaccine or another,” he said. “This is a first-world problem, certainly for those who are still waiting for their first vaccination and even more so for people in countries who might not even have the prospect of receiving a first inoculation this year.”

Unions in Spain have raised concerns about a government decision to administer AstraZeneca shots to police, military, firefighters and teachers.

Italian doctors are declining AstraZeneca shots

In Poland Michal Dworczyk, who leads the government’s vaccine effort, said he regretted "that some irresponsible politicians or trade unions have tried to scare teachers or cause such anxiety by giving false information about the AstraZeneca vaccine.”

I could list multiple EU countries which are all suffering to administer the AZ vaccine. That distrust of AZ (rather than simply wider Antivaxxers) has been associated with messaging. There has been undoubted negative press, and politicians criticising AZ. (The two examples I gave above, with the german health minister and French president) just two examples of many.

Communication and trust in government matters. There are numerous studies which state this is true especially for the COVID epidemic. There are a number of poor instances of poor communication by those in the EU (French, Belgium, German figures spring to mind) of the AZ vaccine which has undoubtedly undermined trust.

That is separate but associated with the broader problem is that vaccine skepticism in general is a huge problem in France and Germany.

Recent polls in France indicate that almost half the population will not get the vaccine. Half !

That is a failure of government, and a lack of trust. Thats not simply a nutcase anti-vaxxer minority.

Whilst there are and will be various reasons for this (including medical scandals in the past), ultimately it comes down to a lack of leadership, poor communication and undermined of trust. Examples of this include botched vaccine role out, AZ communication, and reversing the messaging on key health issues (backtracking on mask use, as real reason was lack of supply).

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Just to clear up doubts of bias. The vast majority of this last year I have been critical of both the UK and US. The only thing I have been critical of the EU has been the vaccine roll out. I am pro-EU, and pro science.

The EU spat with AZ highlights for me misdirection by the EU. They messed it up and started pointing fingers. As the UK did for PPE, as the US did with China.

The EU has not come out of this is a positive light. Be it the public spat with UK, Ireland , AZ . Legally in terms of incorrectly interpreting the contract. Logistics of getting the vaccine through to population, or in terms of public health in terms of vaccine trust.

I do not see these things as being independent.

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Macron described the AZ vaccine as “quasi ineffective in the over 65s”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/oxford-astrazeneca-macron-eu-vaccine-covid-b1794901.html

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I don’t think any leaders in Germany have made such statements have they? Macron had been running his mouth but that guy is a giant penis at the best of times. He’s only in government because he’s not Le Pen.

Wasn’t that from a German newspaper Handelsblatt that the German Health minister instantly trashed?

They supposedly quoted a government source but there is still confusion about what branch of government this source was from. Probably the same source that leaked to the press that they were not using the AZ vaccine on over 65s due to lack of data.

Did they? When? The EC responded to criticism about the slowness of the approval process:

the most effective regulatory mechanism to grant all EU citizens’ access to a safe and effective vaccine,

The only thing I’ll agree with you on is that had AZ supplied the full amount of vaccines then they would have gone unused in Germany. I’m pretty disappointed that citizens have rejected it. If that is in fact the case of what is happening and not a lack of organisation and preparedness of the under 65s to actually be instructed to confer in and have the jab (more likely). Keep in mind that the 65+ are having Pfizer and if they are doing a staged rollout of she groups like UK then they might stockpile AZ to inoculate when it’s the <65 turn.

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The BBC reported it being like the Jewish Joke

But even France 24 was providing examples of criticism

The criticism came in the form of explaining the slow regulatory approval. That the UK had taken an unsafe approach.

Examples include Ursula von der Leyen saying that the UK had cut corners and compromised on safety and efficacy. Clement Beaune (French Health Minister) saying the UK was taking too many risks. From German MEP Peter Liese to former EMA head Guido Rasi. The safety of the vaccine approach taken by the UK was questioned.

The EU took an approach of we are taking longer to approve because we are safer. The implication was due process was not performed or substandard.

Once the EU approved it. Individual countries then did not approve it for over 65s. That further undermined confidence. The comments by the likes of Sarkosy are important as it becomes no longer an issue about not enough data, but not working in over 65s.

That briefing to the German press also excibated the issue. From what I read it was reported by a couple of German papers simultaneously. Both Bild I think was one of them.

Poor messaging by politicians harmed uptake of the AZ vaccine.

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Google translate: Data from England surprise - AstraZeneca works particularly well with older people

At this point it almost feels like AZ are just trolling now.

Check out the replies though, the smear campaign against AZ has done its job extremely effectively. Anti-vaxxers also out in force.

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Isn’t he in prison yet?

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Had my first Pfizer jab today. :smiley:

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I wonder if it goes deeper than that now. Basically, the EU population turning their backs on UK stuff as a result the Brexit saga of 5 years. I suspect there’s been a barrage of negative comments from EU media over that period.

Shit. Isn’t Brazil on the red list?
Hmmm…

South Gloucestershire :eyes:

Hurrah. Let’s kill a few more for not doing the obvious months ago.

How were they able to fly into Paris? Is France as shit as we are?

Good question but that still doesn’t excuse measures that should have been taken here almost a year ago.

Haha yeah slip of the tongue :wink:

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