The European Union

Away End - General Chat
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I’d question the term fascists when talking about the current far right parties. Yes, they have nationalist and xenophonic tendencies, with an authorative streak to boost. But they aren’t fascists in the traditional sense of the word. If you look up what fascism really means, we are far away from it. Not even the neo-fascists in Italy can be called proper fascists in the historic sense.

The interesting thing I note is that if I’m not wrong, not one of these parties, despite being utterly nationalist, requests an exit from the UE. They all know that they’d lose votes, because everyone can see the benefits of staying in the UE. Brexit has probably shown clearly enough how foolish it would be to follow the same way… :joy:

Not that the latest tendency isn’t something to be concerned about, but I think that words must be properly defined before being used. The words fascism and nazism are wildly used in all kinds of contexts these days, often in an unhelpful and careless manner.

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427

It’s a shocking map. Also, to see SPD desintegrate in that way is astonishing. Then again, looking in from the outside, I’ve the feeling that Scholz does everything he can to tarnish everything of which his own party is made. I’m probably wrong to pin it down on one single man, but hell… he looks like a miserable chancellor, probably the worst we’ve seen since decades.

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He comes across as being very ineffectual. That rubs off on the entire administration, even when there are some things that they have handled well. It’s not even a case of being “unexciting” or introverted. Merkel was like that but she seemed to be capable of making big decisions without dithering.

I’m wondering whether they will change leadership before the next election. There are some figures who are reasonably well respected. Pistorius, the defence minister, possibly.

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429

I think those purceying the nationalist far right agenda in Ireland are closer to traditional fascism than we think.
Their ideals are single nation, out of Europe and no place for non nationals in the country.

They are not shy of describing the violence they would use to achieve their goals. They lack the intellectual capacity to offer cogent argument as to why they need this new form of Ireland, but they are intent on pursuing it.

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SPD got 2 percent less than in the last European election. Him becoming chancellor was far more of an outlier.

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And btw, fairly good chunk of the AfD are definitely fascists, as in Nazis. The Höcke wing especially and internally they hold all the power.

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432

Well, I know they held their conference at Bergen-Belsen on Hitler’s birthday but clearly that was clearly an unfortunate coincidence…

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Most of us are foreigners at some point in our lives,except those who only leave the house to go the pub and no further. :grin:

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434

I would like to add that the AFD is an anti-Ukraine, pro-Russia party, which became very clear when Ukrainian President Selesnkij gave a speech in the German Bundestag a few days ago. The AFD and the BSW was not present.

https://x.com/IgnazBearth/status/1800840361113485698

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435

Really? Are they talking about aryanism and do they want to put Jews in a concentration camps? Do they want to recreate ‘Great Germany’ by going to war with the rest of Europe? Are they organising marchs in uniform Nürnberg-style, and do they have an army equivalent to the SA, terrorising minorities?

If the answer is yes, I’m falling off my chair and after that, will look where that WW2 helmet from my Grandfather is… :see_no_evil:

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Oh wow.

You may need to look at your definition of fascism.

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I was a bloody foreigner when I lived overseas. :sunglasses:

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So they’re only Nazis if they openly and publicly say they want to meticulously recreate every single step of the Nazis in the 30s/40s?
Also bear in mind, that talking publicly about a lot of those things will get you into legal trouble and some of them indeed have gotten into trouble. The rest is not very subtle dogwhistling. There’s a gazillion amount of evidence about plenty of their members and their Nazi leanings. You speak German, maybe do some research of your own, if you have the time and want to get depressed.

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439

Facism is defined as “a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.”

Nazism is an example of a Facist government but is not the only way facism can be manifested.

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440

Me imaging the self-identified reasonable Germans in the 20s refusing to call them fascists because they hadnt yet executed the final solution we wouldnt know the details of for another 20+ years

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441

He said ‘fascists, as in nazis’.

@Cologne-Liverpool , I understand what you mean, but yes, the term nazis is something very precise and refers to a specific period. I don’t believe that these people are nazis, but that does obviously not mean that they can’t be dangerous for democracy.

@Limiescouse, everyone who had read ‘Mein Kamp’ in the mid-twenties knew exactly what nazism was about. In almost every detail.

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And you believe this based on what?
Yes, they have Nazis, in their party and it’s a powerful wing inside that party (not everyone in the AfD . some of them are just fascists, others just standard racists, the rest extreme Nationalists). Of course you can narrow that definition down so much, that it’s practically impossible to be considered a Nazi in a political party in Germany nowadays (otherwise they would be immediately verboten). If you choose to ignore the absolutely obvious dogwhistling references that are constantly thrown out by them.

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443

Yet they still didn’t have concentrations camps, or even clear indication that was their plan for their enemies, until after they came to power. You have this insistence to require fascisms to look like 1944 Germany and so use standards that would have seen you telling people in 33 “come on, they havent killed 6 million jews so you cannot call them fascist”

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Well, aside from the Hitler worship, stunts outside concentration camp memorials, banning books from schools (the Diary of Anne Frank), the fact that they employ 100’s of advisors from self-identified Neo-Nazi groups, or that they orchestrate attacks on rival politicians.

But it’s not as if they are walking down the road with Swastikas on their arms. Mainly because that is one thing that would definitely get them arrested.

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445

“If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.”[18]

“the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated”,[17]

And so we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre-War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the east. At long last we break off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre-War period and shift to the soil policy of the future. If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states.[24]

Just a few quotes among a lot, even worse ones, which can be found on internet. The book was a bestseller, and its content known to many people. It was clear what he was going to do if accessing to power.

When assessing politicians, especially from the far right, they should be carefully listen to what they say, because they’ll then attempt to realise it one to one if getting into power.

I don’t trivialise the current far right movements at all, they are dangerous, but their program isn’t the same than Hitler’s (extermination of Jews, extension towards the east, Lebensraum-theory etc.). That was my initial point, not that they are harmless.

Anyway, that’s my last word on it, I don’t want to become this forum’s whipping boy, especially on such a delicate subject. :sweat_smile:

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