I would not be too critical of forum members. There is a disinformation war and a lot of the media used language that biased opinions. For me its telling even on social media, I need to specifically search for content, rather than it coming up in my feed automatically (like it does for Ukraine).
The rules of the game changed also. A few months ago the debate was if Israel would ever purposely bomb a hospital. BBC got labeled antisemitic for suggesting this. Today the all the hospitals lie in ruin. Others saw war as a justified response. However deliberately starving a population crosses a different line.
My worst fears have been realized. The dangers of dehumanisation and the talk of genocide can no longer be dismissed as hyperbole. Despite all the propaganda and political support the narrative is not something that can be controlled.
I am sorry that we lost a few very good posters (Jewish/Israel supporters). I do encourage other points of view. In fact I would love to understand what their positions are today.
The actions/responses of both sides in this war have been utterly deplorable over the years. And as mentioned before , If the shoe was in the other foot , the actions of the Palestinians would be exactly the same as the actions of the Israeliâs.
You have no basis for making that statement. Itâs a bit like saying that if the âshoe was on the other footâ the Ukrainians would do exactly the same as the Russians or the Australians would do the same as the Nazis. Israel has created this entire scenario through its actions going back decades and is the chief protagonist. Itâs utterly baseless and by muddying the waters like this you are indirectly lessening the severity of the warcrimes being perpetrated by Israel. Shame on you!
Again , this current conflict goes back to more than 100 years back. Youâll be wrong to say that this was essentially created by Israel when there were a lot of hands muddying this.
Iâm not going to apologize for taking a macro view on this(as this particular war being a part of a greater conflict). Iâll criticize and I have criticized both parties as I see it fit.
Hamasâs motto is the eradication of Israel. You can term it as grandstanding because they donât have the capability. But for me ,it makes Hamas and Israel Govt the opposite sides of the same fucking coin
Hamas is just a group and itâs members are only a very small subset of the Palestinians that Israel is slaughtering whereas Israel is acting in its capacity as a state. You are wrong headed equating them 'as two sides of a coin".
I think theyâve largely been corrected to be honest. It was a mess in the early parts of Part 2 of the thread, if Iâm not wrong, with someone posting links to conspiracy theorist sites that were very obviously parroting the Russian line.
I think the two situations arenât very comparable either. Ukraine did nothing to provoke the war, whereas itâs very arguable that the October 7 massacre directly precipitated the current events, the historical backdrop notwithstanding.
Iâm not going to âboth sidesâ this issue, but I think suggesting that Israel as a nation bears all the blame is misplaced. I think itâs very much the sociocultural attitudes borne out by history, and the encouragement of right-wing press and political figures that has resulted in the sentiment favouring the military actions seen today. Sure, you can argue that Hamas exists because of the Israeli governmentâs actions, but you canât argue that Israeli society as a whole is solely to blame for this entire situation.
On the other hand, you canât blame Russian society as a whole either, you can only blame the corrupt system and the figures within that system, that needs to perpetuate the propaganda in order to survive.
The Ukrainian far-right may be provocative, but they certainly do not have as much power as Hamas does. They certainly arenât in government either.
So, the main difference is that there is far less reason to ascribe any responsibility to Ukraine than there is to Hamas, even though the Palestinian population is not Hamas. But Hamas does command support in the population, whether or not that is justified by Israeli government actions. In both cases however, the government of the invading country is not acting in the best interests of their populations, but of a select few.
The Palestinians in the Gaza strip have had to endure Hamasâ oppression as much as theyâve had to endure Israelâs. And going by Netanyahouâs own words, Hamas have been supported by Israel since years.
(âŚ) Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. (âŚ)
Hamas wasnât the government, they were the controlling authority just as Abbas/PA was in the West Bank. Governing means having legitimacy and accountability, neither Hamas or Abbas have either.
For practical purposes , Hamas is the government. Itâs another thing whether they have legitimacy or accountability ? Whatâs the difference between a âcontrolling authorityâ and a government in this case? Hamas is responsible or should be responsible for the upkeep of people in Gaza. That they choose not to makes them a bad controlling or governing entity.
That is true. No one is saying that Hamas isnât oppressive or that Israel havenât propped them up. The point is that they are the controlling faction in Gaza , they are the government.
The fact that they would rather sacrifice Gaza residents lives to a bloodthirsty regime simply means that they are abdicating that responsibility.
Itâs about what @PaulRoJo said. Israelis can be held accountable for the actions of their government because they they are the one who put them in power. But the Palestinians canât be held accountable for the actions of Hamas or Abbas, but Hamas and Abbas still has the obligation to provide for the Palestinians.
Youâre forgetting the shenanigans that Bibi did to remain in power. Most Israeliâs donât support Netanyahu either. A case can well be made (and should be made) that Netanyahu is running an illegitimate government. The fact that not enough Israeliâs have risen up against Netanyahu to depose his government is sad.
And as far as Israeliâs go , whether they support Netanyahu or not doesnât mean they donât support this military action. I think the call for military action is near unanimous across all Israelis.
And as far as Palestine goes , The attitude remains the same too. Are there any Palestinians who are in a position to support a government without the presence of Hamas / Fatah ? Is there a credible thought process within Palestine (and I mean by people living in West Bank/Gaza) ?
Itâs not just about the land. Itâs about hearts and minds. The hatred at this point is well entrenched in both groups.
And again this is the main opposition leader to Bibi.
âWe must agree on a date for elections in September, about a year from the war,â he said.
âSetting such a date will allow us to continue the military effort while signaling to the citizens of Israel that we will soon renew their trust in us," he added.
