The Middle East Thread

Agreed - the only deal I can see here is something along the lines of ‘we stop killing you, you release the hostages, and we go back to a harsher version of the status quo with years of ongoing discussions’.

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Exactly what I think will happen too. They will likely tighten the screws and make Gazans long for the days before october 7th for many years , probably decades unless peace, to come. A draconic form of imposing a brutal deterrence.

But of course, with geopolitical situation still in flux, it is possible that we are wrong. But I don’t think see it right now.

To which Hamas (not that I approve of them) could reply, “Okay, we’ll give you your hostages. Now give us back our land.”

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Hamas sticking to those demands would work well, except for the fact that the Gazans just keep dying during the impasse. Those hostages are political cover for ethnic cleansing.

Hamas don’t care about the loss of life.

That’s why they need to be replaced. The trouble is that the Netanyahu government is going about it completely the wrong way.

If they had reacted to the events of 7th October with targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders, nobody would have objected. Instead, they went for wholesale genocide.

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Unfortunately, Netanyahu cares even less about the loss of life than the Hamas leadership, and members of his coalition actively wish to see a vacant Gaza annexed to Israel. It isn’t really an impasse at all.

I suspect Netanhayu cares considerably about loss of life - the more the better. It is the easiest and cleanest way to accomplish their goals.

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what boggles my mind about this, is the support that Israel has been given for the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinians. How Israel isn’t facing a UN War Crimes tribunal is beyond my understanding, and really shows us two precedents

1 - UN/NATO are useless when it comes to stopping an act of war

2 - Sovereign states have no recourse to an invasion, this has been shown to the modern world multiple times now. If you live next to a war-like nation-state, best get your military trained up and warehouses stockpiled. right, Taiwan?

Stopping a war is not in the NATO Charter, and has nothing to do with Israel. The UN, well, yeah, welcome to the world since 1954. It is only effective in instances where no great powers (SC permanent members) have an interest, which is basically none.

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html#:~:text=NATO’s%20purpose%20is%20to%20guarantee,the%20long%20run%2C%20prevent%20conflict.

Key word…members. Are any NATO members involved? Stretching NATO to cover Israel/Palestine under Article 5 (collective defence) is not viable, and was in fact explicitly rejected in the Suez Crisis of 1956. Stretching it to cover Yugoslavia damn near broke it, and that had much more direct impact on NATO members.

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This is one of the biggest what ifs of the Israeli response to the October 7. Israel is very capable of carrying out targeted assassinations and surgical strikes, and over six months they could have seriously degraded Hamas capabilities.

True, there still would have been collateral deaths. But no where near 34,000, 60-70% of whom are women and children. Critical infrastructures like hospitals, and water and power installations could have been spared and those in turn would have lessened the suffering to some extent. More importantly, Israel wouldn’t have become a rough state.

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Didn’t NATO impose a no-fly zone over Iraq?

Why don’t US and EU sanction the Israeli government/authorities and the private contractors? That would be a decisive measure while not compromising Israel security.

After Trump decided to acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and moved the US Embassy there it is classed as Israeli in the eyes of the US, so they can’t turn around and then tell the Israelis they can’t build there.

An absolute genius move from Trump :person_facepalming:

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No, that was the US and the UK. It had no NATO standing.

hmmm … it didn’t end well the last time they tried such a thing.

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It’s not just about Jerusalem. I was talking about Israeli settlements in general. East Jerusalem (along with West Bank) is still recognized as Palestinian/Occupied Territories even by US.

Yes, I meant to mention that. I too have a bad feeling about this.