The Owners - FSG

Agreed, I thought it was utterly ridiculous.

The poster below yours talks about the myth that we went all guns blazing, yet we played key players who we didn’t want to expose to any risk of injury.

Jota, who got injured in it, and Fabinho who has suffered over-use type injuries since, shouldn’t have been anywhere near it. We also risked Salah and TAA unnecessarily. Yes the later was coming back from injury, but it was still a risk.

Jota didn’t need game time. He was playing perfectly well when used in the build up to that one, and a key contributor.

As I said, I think we might have been after the prize money, but when dealing with an injury crisis it really was daft.

Love Klopp, but sometimes he sets himself up. This one, as you outlined, and also the way he banged on about the winter break last season and yet we were utter rubbish in the matches after it.

In fact, it it were not for that winter break, and presuming momentum changed the Watford result, we might have wrapped the title up at a packed Anfield, before the covid suspension of the season.

1 Like

Klopp deemed that Jota needed game time. He’s the one with all the data, he’s the one who oversees every player on every training session, he’s the world class manager. You can argue that he made a mistake playing Jota and that’s fine. Stating it like it’s a matter of fact is wrong though, particularly when Jota’s injury wasn’t caused by fatigue or over-exertion but by a reckless clogger sliding in.

Klopp was banging on about the winter break because he’s looking out for his players’ welfare. He’s been perfectly clear every time he’s talked about it. If anything, he should be applauded for his stance.

5 Likes

thank you.

just for clarity Jotas previous full game was 8 days earlier and he made a sub apperance for 17 minutes 3 days prior.

if Liverpool were only motivated by winning the game for money someone should have reminded Klopp that Jordan Henderson is a champions league winning captain and Clarkson…lets just say, isnt.

i understand the initial reaction to some of the names that played that day…hell…even i was joking about Klopp playing a TAN select for the game (id be upfront…have to be) but once Klopp played who he played, i forced myself to stop and think on it.

its easy to say ‘such and such shouldnt have been near the first team that day’ but this is the champions league, we are Liverpool and our coach is Jurgen Klopp.

we cant talk about that line up without the context of what Jurgen has achieved at this club and the ethos of the way he goes about it…every game of football is to be respected in the correct manner.

where i feel uncomfortable with the accepted truth about that fixture is how it was so pivotal in our downfall and such an error on Klopps behalf…

fixture was played on the 10th december and by new years day we were still top of the league…Klopp was handling game time really really well at that point, but his arguement about fixture congestion was still relevant.

dunno, maybe im being too defensive but i just dont see that midgetland game as such a pivotal moment…

10 Likes

and just for clarity, i probably have a few issues with Klopps team selection during alot of games… but i sit behind a keyboard in australia as coach of my kids junior team…when you look at the names on the team sheet that day, maybe theres a few players that could have been interchanged, but as a whole, it wasnt a great liverpool team, and he still had to represent LFC using the squad of CL players he had avaliable to him…

2 Likes

Nothing is an accepted truth, everything is debatable.

Klopp isn’t perfect, he makes mistakes, but he’s done wonders to win what he has with a squad that wasn’t really that deep, and had some compromise squad players that weren’t an ideal fit in terms of rotation, or were too injury prone.

This season is the culmination of a tight squad, not rotated as much as ideal over recent seasons, the intense style of play, over three years, exacerbated by fixture congestion, and the further impact of injuries on rotation this season, a whole department wiped out, no fans to help them through, and on top of that some disgraceful refereeing, and clear bias in the media and amongst pundits that added to the pressure and let refs off the hook.

But there was no reason to try and win the Denmark match, the group was won, prize money for the match less relevant than the impact of slipping out of the top four. In a season where the trend on player fitness was obvious, it seemed blinkered to chase prize money (if that’s what it was), and risk anyone.

I know he had to pick from the CL squad, and a team of all kids would have got beaten badly, and he did use Fab for 45 only.

But Fabinho has seen his fare share of injuries during his time here, and so questioning the missed opportunity to rest him isn’t unreasonable. Jota wasn’t overused to that point, but every match played runs the impact injury risk, and given that our defensive issues made it likely that we’d have to score our way to wins, it was a risk that’s fair to question.

It wasn’t pivotal, but losing Jota has cost us some points, and who knows whether a full week off might have helped Fab rest up after playing so much and avoid compound strains.

It’s done now, but the point remains that we’re a well run club, with good owners, and a brilliant manager, but on a debate forum it’s fair to question decisions when they deviate from what you expect of such competent people.

1 Like

Wonder how this will play out;

2 Likes

As I said, I don’t mind the team selection on his own merits. You can make the argument to play anyone.

The problem is that Klopp spent all the opening months of the campaign moaning about a lack of preseason, cancelling the winter break, fixture congestion. He looked like he was going to deck Des Kelly at one point, fell out with Chris Wilder, and generally had a face like a smacked arse about the whole business.

If you are going to act like that, then when the opportunity presents itself to give the squad a break, you’ve got to take it. Because if you don’t the narrative is going to turn on a sixpence to your massive fucking hypocrite.

Doesn’t help that we lost two players for months.

Guys,

There are plenty threads to discuss players, tactics, games etc.

Love you.

The report states that the deal is nearing completion, so not a done deal quite yet.

Assuming it does go through a lot will depend on the source of the shares RedBird will acquire i.e. are they acquiring existing shares previously issued and allotted to FSG shareholders, or are FSG as a company authorising / issuing new shares to be sold to RedBird.

If it’s the former, then any money goes directly to the individual FSG shareholders. If it’s the latter, then the money goes into FSG’s account and might become available for investment e.g. in LFC.

I hope it’s the latter!

5 Likes

Should have been a u23 and fringe player team that game everyone was saying. Even when Jota went down I wasn’t even upset cause I was like wasnt this you deserved Jürgen for starting such a strong team when the one game it wasn’t even needed. The least important game of the year, the Caraboa cup first game was actually more important than that game

1 Like

Sensible post, thank you.

Like everyone else, I hope it is for a new share offering, and funds are injected into the club. If that is what happens, we might yet have a big summer, perhaps even competing for Mbappe or Haaland, while also refreshing the team in a couple other positions, even against a covid backdrop.

2 Likes

bugs bunny money GIF by Looney Tunes

4 Likes

Hurrah… to the “who would you buy” thread!!!

From Bugs Bunny’s left to right, the four piles represent money for Haaland, Sancho, Mbappé and Camavinga respectively.

Sorted.

7 Likes

Ten percent for … 750 millions?..

2 Likes

How did you get that emoji???

Liverpool alone is valued around 2 billion. So FSG in total can be worth 7.5b.

3 Likes

The mods have got their own secret stash that we mere mortals aren’t allowed to use.

7 Likes

That’s a little bit of an altruistic oversimplification on what happens to the money if it’s indeed new shares being issued.

Ultimately it’s to pay themselves off and/or so they don’t have to use any of their own money. And “re-investment” is a pretty broad stroke of a term when you consider Liverpool isn’t their only focus. Further, LFC player transfer sales probably isn’t anywhere near their top 10 of what FSG would consider “investing” in with this brand new influx of cash. They will use as very little of ‘new money’ as they possibly have to as a means to underwrite player acquisition. Sell to buy will carry the majority of the water in that regard. And I’m only using the last 5 years of net spend public data to make that statement.

All that said, these are businessmen. American businessmen at that, this is to get them paid and minimize their own exposure. Look at what ALK is doing in Burnley.

EDIT: this RedBird group is investing 750 million dollars. FSG’s books have been vetted by teams of lawyers, accountants, and consultants. They’re investing money for one reason, to make even more money.

1 Like

No chance…

the biggest bundle is for the extra physios we need!

2 Likes

In all reality if ANY of that money DOES come to LFC (not guaranteed even if it can) it would probably just be what is required to keep us stable after lost revenues.

One thing we need to do (and I regularly find myself guilty of it too) is avoid slipping into the net spend mistake. Its not how it works.

There’s two separate matters. First profit & loss, second cashflow.

Cashflow is affected by how the deals are structured. So to take Alisson in 2018 as an example the fee was £56m plus £9m in extras. The £56m was probably split over 2/3 seasons so either £28m a year that’s paid now or around £19m a year with final payment this summer. The £9m will have been due when triggered and almost certainly paid by now. On cashflow we’ve done very little incoming business since 2018 so most or all of previous deals should be finished with the rest this summer clearing many over heads. The business this summer was loaded to largely skip the first year or so to take the pandemic into account and wasn’t really heavy spending either.

Outgoing actually works the same way so yet again I’d expect mostly resolved by now.

On profit and loss outgoing sales are actually very good. First a purchase is spread through life of the contract, so Alisson (again) signed for 6 years so it’s roughly on the books at £11m per year with 3 years expired so £33m cleared and around same left to go. If he extends his deal by signing another 6 year deal it spreads that out to around £5.5m per year halving the yearly cost (the rumours of wanting to extend his and VvD deals therefore makes a lot of sense).

When players are sold though 100% of that incoming money goes onto the books there and then. So in that example if we then sold Alisson this summer (a ridiculous example) for what we paid then the “cost” of the player still on the books is around £32.5m so that gets “paid” then the remaining £32.5m is “profit”.

Now I feel like I’ll get a lot of heat for this prediction but thinking it through there are two high profile outgoings that could be really beneficial from the business side. Mane and Firmino.

Mane signed for about £35m on maybe a 4 year deal so around £9m a year, two years in he extended on a 5 year deal so about £3.2m a year with only about £6.5m left. Anything past that is profit on the books. On cashflow it’s all good as we’ve almost certainly fully paid up on him.

Firmino yet again is almost certainly fully paid for in cash terms and signed for around £30m in 2015 on a 5 year deal so £6m a year, 3 years in (£18m cleared) he extends in 2018 on another 5 year deal so now around £2.5m a year with £5m to go.

Both have been in spotty form but have top class reputations that might attract top clubs still and have two years left on their deals so could fetch OK prices. Say £50-60m for Firmino maybe around £70-80m for Mane (including extras). That’s actually a hell of a lot of profit coming into the club and a hell of a lot of cash coming in on the cashflow side of things. Best part of £120m to balance the club profit and loss books for this year coming and cashflow to pay the day to day running costs.

With future revenue streams more predictable after the pandemic and the last few existing payments cleared or being cleared this summer there could actually then be significant room to add on to the annual outgoing cash payments and the annual profit and loss costs.

A few things need to really happen now, some hard decisions on guys like Ox and Keita need making, they don’t earn their current wages but wouldn’t like extend deals on worse terms so we either match/improve the current earnings they aren’t earning to extend their deals or sell them to recover what we can and get their costs off the books.

Guys like Alisson and VvD need locking in a room and not allowed to leave till they sign extensions to spread their “costs” out further on the books.

Then if interested clubs are sniffing around Mane and/or Firmino and the players are open I can see moves happening. Especially if this big deal goes through so FSG have cash to make available to meet payments before revenues later come in if that makes any sense. I would actually predict that leading to some major moves in the market from us, on a par with the VvD and Alisson ones and potentially even club record fee style moves.

My understanding of all this is pretty damn basic and I may have got things wrong/explained it poorly. But to my limited understanding that’s what I could see happening.

6 Likes