UK Politics Thread (Part 1)

[Kopstar]

@Magnus

Anyway, regret posting it. Wasn’t a big deal. I saw it thought, wow, what a-historical messaging. If she wanted to thank them for saving European democracies, she should have worded it much better I thought, because in her post it looks like she is giving them a motive they most probably didn’t have, except in a very few novel cases.

But no big deal, I think Indians would just chuckle at it, so it is not as if she is insulting someone for real. I shouldn’t have posted it, it is meta discussion really and no big deal. Still looks odd and wrong to me, but then again, many things are odd to me and not all of it deserves a long debate.

I’ve enjoyed the debate, it’s been constructive and informative. It also allowed me to defend Diane Abbott; it’s always good to experience something new. So, thank you

[RedSeven]

@Arminius

@Iftikhar

Not really. The British didn’t have the resources to fight and save their colonies. The French tried (in Indochina and Africa) and wasted more lives and resources. Fighting for the Allied Powers didn’t help bring independence to the colonies.

I think that varies tremendously across all of the colonies. In Africa, I would simply say ‘yes, it didn’t’. In India, it did, but not directly - there was just a gradual realization in British government that India was now manifestly far too big to govern, it was simply beyond their capacity. In the Caribbean, there was a direct connection.

As always, the colonies with a greater white population came off better.

Are you just talking about during wartime here?

[Arminius]

@RedSeven

Are you just talking about during wartime here?

No, more in the aftermath. India is an outlier, because it had such a massive movement for independence, and the British government came to a realization there was no way British rule could go on. But for example South Africa and Rhodesia became independent in a fairly seamless process not that different from Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The Caribbean islands also did not have a great deal of trouble, although the process took far longer than envisioned by many of the islanders in say 1950. Places like Malaysia had a different experience.

[AfriKana]

@BigJon

Perhaps some of the “colonial” troops fought to defend their own countries from the future threat of fascism. It was the British Empire that fought WW2 not just Britain.

There was no conscription in India - enlisting was voluntary. Some recruits saw it as a way to earn money. Some felt a duty to Britain - there are a myriad of reasons why somebody joins up.

Indian regiments (formed from POWs) also fought on the side of Germany and Japan - with the promise of Indian independence following WW2.How solid that promise was will never be known.

During WW2 the Imperial Indian forces were under orders from London - to have disobeyed any of those orders would have had severe consequences.That is how it is in the military.

What I am getting at here is to dispel any revisionist impression that the “colonial” forces were forced by Britain to participate in the war effort. Existing “colonial” regiments that were under British command were sent to fight all over the world. The fact that Britain was a colonial power at the time of WW2 does not make it wrong that “colonial” forces were commanded to fight fascists. Italy, France and the Dutch were also colonial powers at the time - all called upon their “colonies” to provide troops.

Everybody should give thanks that the soldiers of the British Empire stood against the Nazis - Each and every one played a part in defeating that terrible tyranny.

Instead of saying “to defend democracy” Diane Abbott would have better said - "to defeat the forces of Fascism and tyranny. She, once again, failed to say what she really meant.

So you think the thousands of Africans who were sent to the front lines did it voluntarily?

I think not…

[Kopstar]

@AfriKana

So you think the thousands of Africans who were sent to the front lines did it voluntarily?

I think not…

Where does he say that? When you say “Africans” where are you talking about specifically, and do you mean that they didn’t join the army voluntarily?

[AfriKana]

@Kopstar

@AfriKana

So you think the thousands of Africans who were sent to the front lines did it voluntarily?

I think not…

Where does he say that? When you say “Africans” where are you talking about specifically, and do you mean that they didn’t join the army voluntarily?

Maybe I read it wrong, don’t know, if you get colonised and subjugated, what choice do you really have?

I’m from Kenya so can’t speak for India or other former colonies. Maybe fighting for the British was incentivised e.g. you won’t be treated like complete dirt if you join.

We did not volunteer to get colonised so what makes you think we would have freely volunteered to fight a war for them?

[AfriKana]

@HometownZero

To be far you’d be hard pressed to find anyone to volunteer to get bits of their body blown off or killed. Ya wanna sit home with a beer or go off to France lad? propaganda,misplaced loyalty, and no choice applied as much to the working class of Britain as it did to the empire

There will be parallels between both, but the reasons are far worse for those who were part of the empire.

My grand dad fought in the war, was paid way less than white soldiers, treated like absolute dirt, punished, beaten by superiors and was fucked off after the war.

And he should say thank you for that shit? Fuck that.

[Derecho]

My grandfather fought in WW2.
He never came back.

[AfriKana]

@HometownZero

Original post was about remembering that’s it. If y’all don’t want to acknowledge that cos you see it as some colonial thing fine.We all have war stories.RIP and respect to those that served WW1 and WW2,shouldn’t be a political football now.

I have respect for those that fought in the war, not sure why we can’t acknowledge both.

May have taken the original post out of context but saying the British didn’t force people from the colonies to fight is way off the mark.

[AfriKana]

Sorry [quote=“Blueskinnedbeast, post:1098, topic:351, full:true”]
My grandfather fought in WW2.
He never came back.
[/quote]

Sorry to hear that bud, RIP.

[Kopstar]

@AfriKana

We did not volunteer to get colonised so what makes you think we would have freely volunteered to fight a war for them?

Because it has happened throughout history. Countries/Empires have taken control of territories and those living in those territories are conscripted or accepted into the ranks of the ‘conquering’ army. Being a soldier/warrior provided a living, regardless of who was in charge.

Were soldiers in Kenya conscripted into the army to fight for the allies?

[WooltonRed]

My grandfather survived the Somme (How he did that, is a miracle)
My uncle was lost with all his shipmates, when his merchant ship was torpedoed by a German U boat, in the North Atlantic, January 1942.
He was 18yrs old.

[SBYM]

Just awful.

[Kopstar]

My great-grandfather served in the first world war. I think I mentioned that on TIA. I won’t bore you again with the details of his heroism.

Ahem.

[Arminius]

@AfriKana

There will be parallels between both, but the reasons are far worse for those who were part of the empire.

My grand dad fought in the war, was paid way less than white soldiers, treated like absolute dirt, punished, beaten by superiors and was fucked off after the war.

And he should say thank you for that shit? Fuck that.

Seems to me that it was people like your Granddad who Abbott was trying to call attention to, and I cannot fault her for that. Many of the colonial troops were treated appallingly poorly, not allowed to rise about the rank of warrant officer, yet served with distinction and courage in places like Burma. Kenya was one of the examples I was thinking of when I said “Many of the leaders of the post-colonial world came from those Commonwealth militaries, and not all of them were particularly friendly to the British.”, specifically the soldiers mustering out who were a huge part of KASU/KAU.

[cynicaloldgit]

Newsnight leading with the story that Cummings could be going(s) by the end of the year.

Interesting…

[BigJon]

Look at it this way - you are living in a British colony in Africa in 1939.

Aliens come from outer space invade and begin fighting. They promise to kill or enslave every being on planet Earth who does not fit the Ayrian racial profile.

Soon they will come for you and your family. Do you fight against the aliens or sit back and watch as your entire culture and race is wiped from the earth? This may sound far fetched but It’s not as if the Nazis did not try to eradicate a race of people. The list was long.

Imagine what the world would have been like if the Nazis won. Imagine what Africa would be like today.

Colonialism was a vile period. Serious crimes against humanity were commited by the colonial powers. But as I said before, when it comes to fighting Nazis there was no alternative - everyone had to stand up and fight - the consequences of not doing so are unimaginable. There was no other choice. Give thanks that the people of the British Empire rallied against them.

Hate the crimes of colonialism - you are justified to do so but don’t hate the British and the Empire for fighting Nazis.

[BigJon]

Sorry to bang on -

My Father fought in N Africa against Rommel - when that battle was won he went to Southern Italy.

He was shot in the back in 1944 - an inch to the left and I would not be writing this.

[WooltonRed]

Please don’t apologise, your dad is a true hero.

[gasband]

Singapore was also a British colony and while maybe they brought some benefits back then to us, and we bear no hatred for their superiority complex then on the UK today, ww2 showed how useless the British forces were. And while it took around 13 years before Malaya gain independence, seeing how the Brits surrendered to the Japanese in record time, probably made us realized they were probably not as great and we can do better by ourselves.

That is how Grandpa bless his soul, felt and his generation while not harbouring hatred for the colonial masters and the Japanese, never really liked them until he passed.

And on WW2 forces, Singapore will always be thankful for the local guerilla forces, the Australians who count as the majority of those sacrificed and the Indian contingent.