Couldn’t discuss it where? Did you mean on the TIA forum? I don’t remember that one although I do recall that they were a bit less tolerant of “robust discussion”.
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To this day I am the only one (maybe apart from my Mom) who knows my Dad voted Leave. My Dad is the most genuine, honest, intelligent and loving person in the world. If one of his customers called him late at night he would go over and sort the issue out if he could.
The sad thing is that the majority on here would class him as ignorant/RW purely because he voted Leave and that is SO wrong.
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Just in general.
52% of the voting population voted leave, which means if your at a gig, on a train, at the gym, etc, so by the laws of average half of that crowd were likely to have voted leave.
Yet, if you were to go off this site or other social platforms you would think that it was only a minority who voted leave.
Absolutely true. The notion that everybody who voted leave is a racist Farrage loving imbecile who believed the shit about on the bus is symptomatic of the bigots who can’t possibly entertain the notion that there was more to it than their ignorant view.
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It’s quite possible that it equates to a silent majority although with many of these things it is only those that are politically engaged that actually express a view.
In terms of social platforms now, I suspect that there aren’t that many people who would actually want to take ownership of the shitshow. However, people are entitled to have their view. Other people have the right to challenge that.
In 2016, I seem to recall that there were a huge number of very noisy people claiming things like “they need us more than we need them” and ideas like they would get a better deal from the EU because the German car industry would force their hand. You don’t hear these things any more because it is an obvious fallacy.
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I know you don’t mean it but do you know how condescending the first two paragraphs of your post are?
In 2016, there was a lot of noise from both sides.
It’s not a fallacy. It was horrifically badly negotiated. Still the same number of new German cars being sold (anecdotal) and we have to jump through a thousand hoops now. I’d have negotiated a much better deal, most would have called it the best deal. Biden was too weak, it’s all his fault!
Trump mode off.
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100% correct but lets look at before the last labour government was in power. Debt as a proprtion of gdp was rising. It fell under the labour government until the 2008 financial crisis. Agree it went a bit nuts at that point. Enter the thieving pig fornicator Cameron and they put us into austerity and yet debt still rose. That worked out really well. Then it continued under May and Johnson until Covid hit and it climbed dramatically again
But it clearly shows that under tory governments debt rises. It also shows debt falling under a labour government if you ignore the market crash.
So where is the right justification for massive debt under a labour government?
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So who is now running the country???
So if we’re ignoring the market crash, can we ignore COVID too? COVID caused more financial trouble than just millions not working for a year, the cost to move containers in from China literally doubled as a simple example.
I disagree , imo red is one of the genuine posters that offers insight into an opposing view and I don’t think he has ever intentionally been condescending in any way that I have seen.
In TIA especially the Brexit / politics threads there genuinely was debate and respect for many posters of differing view points, as much as I like TAN, this is a more toxic environment for political debate ( and yes I have been guilty of being just as bad as the next person) again only my opinion, but @RedWhippet has always been decent to engage and offers almost a neutral opinion, and ive never felt annoyed at reading anything hes posted…knowing my luck that will change now 
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And yet a small government that has alienated the civil service has done superb job of managing covid, immigration, housing etc.
Covid proved that you need a strong, and well resourced government to tackle stuff.
Yes but before Covid debt as a proprtion of gdp still rose under a conservative government, as i said. Its the tories that have increaed debt proportion in the uk over the last 30 years outside of financial crises, not labour.
Thanks Odin, I get that from Red.
We are all guilty of being passionate, saying things in the heat of the moment and likewise it is easy to misinterpret or overthink a response online with out the context of delivery 
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The driving factor of Brexit was fear and division. It was easier to blame foreigners for the ills of the UK than for the UK government to take responsibility.
Look at the last general election, 4.1 people voted for Reform. That’s more than the Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein, DUP, Ulster party combined. 7M people still voted Tory.
I would like to think if there was a Brexit referendum today it would be reversed. However the UK has some deep rooted problems.
Populists providing easy options, a post truth world where lies come so thick and fast no one cares. A willing press acting as cheer leaders, and an almost Orwellian public who don’t believe their eyes and ears. The election might have been a landslide victory in terms of seats. But there is a more unsettling truth. A large proportion of population has not shifted.
Even these last few pages here, the tropes of all politicians being as bad as each other is almost the nihilistic acceptance of shitness.
The UK has been royally fucked over by the Tories and Farage and a decade long Labour Party who never wanted to lead but wanted to be a protest party.
The problem with Starmer is not corruption or his approach to Brexit. It’s that he is not radical enough. Major reform and transformation is needed. It’s akin to the engine is failing on a classic car. It’s on its last legs. But the solutions offered are some new tyres and an air freshener.
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[quote=“Lynch04, post:9418, topic:3448, full:true”]
I suppose it is only the UK that is not experiencing the prosperity levels of the 90’s/2000’s. I noticed you said early 2000’s, so when did the Tories come into power? I’m sure the late 2000’s under a Labour Government involved a recession, where people were having their houses repossessed, etc? [/quote]
Oh, are we doing this again?
The financial crash of 2008 was something Labour had to react to. It was a world collapse in the financial sector, and started in America. Not something they caused.
Yes, people were badly hit. But I think you would struggle to argue that Labour made things worse than they needed to be. Which I think is not they case when it came to, for example, Covid. An external shock like that is always going to hit hard and cause damage. But the Tories mismanaged it, and profiteered from it, and as a result our recovery was one of the slowest amongst developed nations.
[quote=“Lynch04, post:9418, topic:3448, full:true”]
Was Brexit solely a Tory misadventure?
They used it as part of their mandate to secure the election because there was a call for it amongst the public. So much so that when the referendum took place there was a narrow majority to leave. Im pretty sure that David Cameron, the PM at the time was pro-remain.[/quote]
Yes it was a Tory misadventure. Brexit was a Tory policy, it was enacted by Tories and fucked up by Tories.
David Cameron was pro remain, but saw the referendum as a way to silence the Euro Sceptics who had been a pain in the arse within the party for years.
No he didn’t. He campaigned against Brexit.
What he didn’t do was join the official remain campaign, realising that a) their overly positive version of the EU was not going to work and b) standing on a shared platform with Cameron would be as toxic for him and Labour as it had been for Milliband when he joined Cameron on the Scottish independence campaign, and it cost Labour 40 Scottish seats.
You might argue that was a mistake, and he should have just joined the official campaign, but it is simply not true to suggest he didn’t campaign against it. He was very active in the run up to the vote.
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What do you mean?
There was a whole range of Brexit options open to us, from hard Brexit WTO rules, remaining in the single market, part of the customs unions, Norway style arrangement etc.
The biggest problem with Brexit was the number of bad faith actors who leapt up in the wake of the vote to gaslight us about the detail of what we voted for, which in many cases was the exact opposite of what they’d spent the campaign reassuring us wouldn’t happen.
What should have happened was a proper parliamentary process to determine the right and best course of action for Britain, but everyone turned into fucking maniacs, arguing with reality, and - the very definition of irony - defying the will of our sovereign parliament to get their way.
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Is it all down to fear though? I think that’s quite a dismissive statement.
I get that the focus on the recent riots were down to idiots causing trouble, using racism and immigration to justify their cause but to me, seeing it as just that is merely burying your head in the sand.
Over the last decade or so there has been an increase in support for “far right” parties across Europe. In fact, predominantly in the two big EU states Germany and France, to the point that Macron had to tactically ensure his power and has shifted his policies more towards the right. Why is that?
Cancelled?
Give your head a fucking wobble mate.