The system is failing people, but people also have to understand that they are part of that system. I’ve said before ‘contempt for conmen, sympathy for the conned’, but the fucks sake, at some point people have to take responsibility to educate themselves and understand what is actually going on.
4 Likes
This was my fundamental point when I wrote the below.
I thought the right was all about personal responsibility and facts and shit??
2 Likes
The problem is that your post is full of false assumed truths and fallacies, framed entirely around a GDP angle.
This whole idea that the UK can only function with immigrants and that the NHS can only ever work (and work optimally) with immigrants are such tired falsehoods
The UK didn´t really have mass immigration until the 90s and certainly didn´t rely on it across the country/countries.
I’d go with D). Cut and reverse (to some degree) mass immigration, use our own pool of workers (a substantial amount are not working), only rely on immigration in some specific industries purely for the short term and on an ad hoc basis. Stop flooding the labour markets, see wages rise again.
What happens to the price of something when you massively increase the supply without a proprtionate increase in demand?
The real funny thing is the studies that I am sure you believe in and almost certainly havent read actually mention some downward pressure for low income workers because of mass immigration.
If they are not working, then they are unlikely to be skilled. Certainly not a doctor or nurse. Probably not skilled tradespeople.
If you want to employ people from your existing population, then you have to invest in them. Even then, you are likely to get a lot of migration, because most migration is internal.
1 Like
I am aware of the potential for downward wage pressure, but it’s typical of free market, Friedman addled loons to refuse to accept the moral case of paying a decent wage to whoever is doing the work.
Lump of labour fallacy?
There is no fixed number of jobs in an economy and those coming into an economy will often create jobs.
The Labour Market Effects of Immigration - Migration Observatory
Empirical research on the labour market effects of immigration in the UK has found negative effects on low-paid workers and positive effects on high-paid workers, but both effects are small. In other words, immigration is not one of the major factors that shape low-wage workers’ prospects in the labour market.
Research suggests that any adverse wage effects of immigration are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because recent and longer-standing migrants are more likely to work in the same occupations, including ones that do not require as many communication skills. As a result, new migrants are likely to be closer ‘substitutes’ for migrants already employed in the UK, and thus in more direct competition.
Haha i don´t think you are.
We actually have quite a lot of qualified doctors struggling to find work.
On the second part I agree with. We have to invest in our own people.
2 Likes
That is the study or summary AI usually points to, yes.
The UK has been in inextricable financial decline since the Suez crisis. 2008 financial crisis, Tory austerity, brexit…these are all inflection points but it’s been a boulder rolling downhill gathering momentum for a long time that has made it increasingly difficult for any government to actually do the things necessary to turn it around.
7 Likes
Yeah, I’m fine thanks.
Your point of view only makes sense if your starting position is that the market is infallible and it’s a mortal sin to ever intervene to correct its myriad faults.
Of course immigration can reduce wages if wages are left totally unchecked and down to the market to regulate itself. The point is that you don’t do that and the last fifty years of neo-liberal experimentation in national economic policy should have taught us that by now.
bUt ThEy hAvE dOnE tHeIr OwN rEsEaRcH…
And isn’t that part of the problem. You look for something and can end up looking at completely the wrong picture.
Nope I disagree.
In fact, controlling immigration is essentially market intervention.
I´m not neoliberal either. Basically, nope.
whys that…
im far from an econics background but when you have a wave of immigration for eductaion purposes who then enter the gig economy (during study, not talking about the immigration rackets on student visas), how does that not put downwards pressure on wages?
look at airtasker? what an horrendous idea that bag of shit is…
‘here guys, instead of getting a licensed tradesman to fix your back verandah, why not get this fella, a 3rd year law student with no insurances and qualifications’
if everyone went for the same job, with the same employment status, then yes, i can understand the point is mute, but the gig economy is so big now it HAS to be driving wages down.
happy to be educated otherwise, but it cant be an hollistic reasoning based on unsound assumptions …you cant base it on people entering the workforce on full time roles only.
Surely you can’t be saying we should stop foreign students coming over because of down pressure on the wages of gig economy jobs? That would destroy the UK university sector.
The way to tackle downward pressure on wages is through a regulated minimum wage. Free market economics has us believing that wages are essentially beyond intervention and must be left to the market. There is more than a whiff of the ‘careful - that foreigner wants your crumb’ meme going on here.
Immigrants depress wages is such a lazy trope it isn’t worth bothering with. The thing that depresses wages is employers being allowed to drive wages down by pitting employees against each other.
A couple of days ago I went to my local Aquatics place to buy a new pump for my fish pond. The shop has been there for about 15 years and I have got to know the owner quite well. He was explaining that the reason he has reduced the opening hours is that because of a recent new increase in the minimum wage, he had to let the 4 part timers go and now does the required hours himself.
I have no issues with minimum wage increases per se but we have to acknowledge that every increase does result in some job losses at least in the short term. It doesn’t result in job creation.
2 Likes
Surely the increase itself didn’t lead to him letting all 4 people go? why not keep one, two or even 3 of them?
While a rise in the minimum wage can lead to some job losses, particularly amongst those with the fewest skills I think research on this area suggests that it can lead to both an increase in wages for more workers, including those earning just above minimum wage, and an overall rise in employment within the economy, particularly if those with the fewest skills have access to training.
I agree but playing devil’s advocate, one argument against being part of the EU was free movement and the availability of cheap labour.
We undoubtedly benefited from it, e.g. fruit pickers keeping fruit cheaper, but did this also create an issue? The imbalance in wages across the Eurozone largely creating this jobs market.
I guess the answer is look what happened when we left.
It will be dependent on a range of factors but one example may be where that job would not have been done if the only option available was to pay a higher price. Alternatively, the skilled tradesman may be too busy to take on new work immediately.
I’m sure it isn’t, neither the Gig economy nor immigration is new, I’m pretty confident that there will be studies on the interplay between these. But realistically, what proportion of those undertaking relatively skilled gig jobs are going to be foreign students?