UK Politics Thread (Part 4)

[Mascot]

@Lynch04

No, I don’t grossly underestimate how fucked the country is and is it really the worst economic circumstances in living memory?

What is this political ignorance you refer to? Can you elaborate please?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I am trying not to get embroiled in long back and forth with you because I don’t really think you are are arguing in good faith. You are repeating right wing tropes and arguments, using the rhetoric of the right, downplaying the damaging the Tories caused, while overplaying how much it’s fair to have expected Labour to have achieved - while claim not to be any of those things. Perhaps you are unaware of how much you are being influenced by right wing media?

But I’ll answer a few points you make.

Yes, you are underestimating how fucked the country is.

• We voluntarily severed links with our closest trading partner, which is now costing billions a year in lost trade and increased friction. I’ve seen estimates have put this as high as £100bn a year.

• A decade and a half of ruinous austerity has destroyed our public services. Social care has been absolutely gutted.schools are on their knees. The NHS is a shell of its former self.

• Utility companies are running wild, using their status as natural monopolies to fleece customer and pay obscene sums to shareholders and bosses.

• We had the worst recovery from Covid, which was mismanaged and used primarily as an exercise in personal enrichment than national solidarity.

• We then had the carnage of Truss, which damaged our credibility on the world stage, and also damaged our capacity to borrow.

• The tax burden is now higher than it’s ever been, the cost of living is still a problem, and inflation is still tricky.

So when I say Starmer hasn’t got any moves, what I mean is he can’t raise taxes and he can’t borrow. He is very limited in what he can do to raise money to invest in the infrastructure the country needs to get out of the negative financial situation.

On political ignorance I mean very few people have the intelligence or education to understand the macro-economic and political forces that shape their lives. Much of politics is characterised by people lashing out.

[Magnus]

Now I read some 50 odd posts above my own meagre silly contribution and done my duty (sorry Maria, I don’t always read all the posts in this thread so didn’t notice yours above mine at the time I posted my light hearted Musk booting farage post) to this great “Snake Eating Tail” thread (aka “tell my friend I said hi, friend then says hi, I tell my friend my other friend says hi and he tells me say hi again, going on until we tire” thread).

As always very interested with some high quality contributions, but I sometimes get dizzy from the roundabouts and sharp turns in this thread.
I understand why some get taxed and exasperated by some of the circular argumentation.
It’s a bit like playing monopoly and hitting the “Go back to Start” or “Go to jail” every single round. Some of you are saintly.

[Magnus]

How engraved the hatred of the UK is in the political Russian psyche has always fascinated me. I see this nonsense so often on Russia’s most popular political Talk Show. But here, they let him rant so long that he almost has time to grow horns and a fiendish tail.
It’s always the same, scare Britons by ranting about sinking the island. How sad for them, that no one in the Uk ever takes notice. All of this hate talk, which may seem bizarre to you but is totally normal on Russian TV, and you don’t even know ! It must surely be infuriating for them that British media never picks this up. They try so hard ! Oh, they try their best…

Jake Broe

Full video if you want to have fun:

Vladimir Solovyov and Andrey Gurulyov discuss Russia's strategy

But it’s just what you would imagine really, so this one is just for the very interested. Just “our invincible submarines and we can do a First Strike and annihilate the degenerate westerners without them having time to retaliate properly” stuff. Normal nonsense.

[RedWhippet]

Well if they want to nuke London, it’s their own money that they are setting on fire.

[Cologne-Liverpool]

Gurulyov has to be peak Russian male stereotype. Looks and talks like he was raised by a vodka bottle.

[Magnus]

@Cologne-Liverpool

Gurulyov has to be peak Russian male stereotype. Looks and talks like he was raised by a vodka bottle.

A real character, the former commander of Russia’s Southern Military District and current member of the State Duma is (Yoda says) :
In 2013 he was charged with abuse of power after forging orders and putting two conscripts into “labor slavery”. The charges were dropped in 2014 because of the statue of limitations. Allegedly the object of the scheme was to furnish Lieutenant general Nikolai Pereslegin with servants and Pereslegin’s daughter, whose company actively participates in bidding and receives government contracts, furnished the appropriate cover with the civilian labour authorities.

A real, real character!

[Magnus]

=
Gurulyov.

Sadly he is far from singular…

[dalglish]

@Magnus

the hatred of the UK is in the political Russian psyche has always fascinated me.

I imagine the fact that wealthy corrupt Russians make London their home may contribute to this

Edit: just seen @RedWhippet post

[Lynch04]

@redalways

See, this is where you’re really losing the benefit of the doubt I’ve given you. You say you’re neither left nor right, but you quite clearly use the language, the memes, the themes of the right-wing. Either you’re being deliberately disingenuous, or you’re stuck in a media bubble you’re completely unaware of (and perhaps refuse to acknowledge).

Does it really matter if you consider some of my views or opinions to be more right leaning than left? I’m sure it doesn’t matter to you if some of your views are more Left leaning than mine. Why is that? it is because you feel that your opinion is more superior than mine, as demonstrated in your patronising comment, where suggest I have been fortunate for the benefit of the doubt you have given me? Very Orwellian!
You are entitled to have your own opinion and views and so am I, we may agree, we may disagree, I respect that. So, please show me some respect by not pigeonholing me when our views differ.

[Lynch04]

@Mascot

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I am trying not to get embroiled in long back and forth with you because I don’t really think you are are arguing in good faith. You are repeating right wing tropes and arguments, using the rhetoric of the right, downplaying the damaging the Tories caused, while overplaying how much it’s fair to have expected Labour to have achieved - while claim not to be any of those things. Perhaps you are unaware of how much you are being influenced by right wing media?

And there you go again. Dismissing my points (not arguments) as not in good faith, suggesting I am repeating right wing tropes and rhetoric’s, completely blind to the hypocrisy of your own stance, rolling out the rhetorical blame game and excuses.

Ok, so let’s go with the whole Tories are to blame for the whole doomsday situation we are in, do you feel any better?
Whatever has happened, is in the past, so let’s forget that and focus on moving forward and dealing with the situation we are in.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, I do not expect Starmer/Government to have solved the UK’s problems in 7 months. However, I do expect them to have some kind of plan as to how they are going to go about changing the fortunes of the Country.

So, to continue with your point, Labour have inherited the worst financial situation in history. They would have known to a certain extent how dire they were, but volunteered to oppose the Tory government in the Election on the promise they would kick start economic growth.

Question for you.
Would you expect a Party, to have had a plan A, B and C depending on how dire the finances were?

So to continue, the Government straight away announced there was a £22bn black hole in the finances, which was backed up in kind by the IMF. So, they are aware of it, even if may even be more than their plan for the ‘worst case scenario’. And so may need to revise their strategy, my problem along with others is that there appears to be no strategy.

And, in contrast to the manifesto, economic growth has shrunk on the back of the budget, energy fees (cap) have risen, winter payments removed for a large number of people, bus fares (cap) have risen, Universities tuition fees have gone up.
I can understand there are reasons for it and appreciate that it won’t be quick and will need some tough and clever decisions, but you have to accept why some people are disgruntled. People can’t afford to wait 4years for Labour to make its mind up on its strategy they don’t need to be Politically informed or experts in Macro-economics to put food on the table for their family.
To be clear, this is not being RW, Tory aligned, anti Labour, this is me telling you to take your blinkers off.

@Mascot

So when I say Starmer hasn’t got any moves, what I mean is he can’t raise taxes and he can’t borrow. He is very limited in what he can do to raise money to invest in the infrastructure the country needs to get out of the negative financial situation.

So did Labour not raise taxes in their recent budget?
Did Labour not change the Fiscal rules recently so they can borrow more money?
But….I thought you told me they couldn’t do that….

Going back to my original point, which you have managed to twist into a RW/LW issue is that irrelevant of your political allegiance, you still have to have expectations of your Government and hold them to account. You can’t spend the whole of their term in office blaming the situation they inherited, put their lack of action down to being unable to do anything and then cry foul when the Country vote in a different Government, labelling the voters as idiots.

[Bekloppt]

Bloody whinging Poms:

Ignore Musk, ignore the critics – you’ll feel the benefit of Labour’s...

[cynicaloldgit]

Polly Toynbee is one of the biggest pro-Labour cheerleaders out there; they can do no wrong in her eyes.

She’s like the polar opposite of @Klopptimist .

[RedWhippet]

@cynicaloldgit

Polly Toynbee is one of the biggest pro-Labour cheerleaders out there; they can do no wrong in her eyes.

She is the centre-left’s little ray of sunshine, bless her.

I did have a look at the S&P ratings, and they do look reasonably promising. Nothing spectacular, but stable and improving.

The problem is that they are rather hand-tied on growth. Joining the EU Customs Union would help a lot, but they don’t appear to have the political will to do it. It would also take a lot longer than it’s fans would believe.

[koptician]

@Lynch04

And there you go again. Dismissing my points (not arguments) as not in good faith, suggesting I am repeating right wing tropes and rhetoric’s, completely blind to the hypocrisy of your own stance, rolling out the rhetorical blame game and excuses.

He’s not the only one. I’ve started replying to your frankly senseless and rambling posts and just deleted it because your posting history is clear on this thread. You obfuscate, misuse factoids to make unrealistic extrapolations, and frankly will never concede a point even when you’ve been proven wrong.
Pretty sure @redalways feels the same way.

[Rambler]

I find the whole Musk saga infuriating. I turned over from BBC news because they were waffling on about it only to find Sky News also majoring on it with the usual politicos analysing it to death.

No doubt Westminster journos are loving it as it gives them easy news copy but they are giving this guy free promotion.

Outside of Westminster, is anyone really interested? What proportion of the population look to Twitter for their news and opinions. Pretty sure Musk is an irrelevance to 99% of the British electorate.

[Bekloppt]

Unfortunately, there are about 20 million people in the UK with Twitter accounts.
Not sure how many are active, but there are still a large number of people who are influenced, one way or another, by the ramblings of its owner.

[Mascot]

@koptician

He’s not the only one. I’ve started replying to your frankly senseless and rambling posts and just deleted it because your posting history is clear on this thread. You obfuscate, misuse factoids to make unrealistic extrapolations, and frankly will never concede a point even when you’ve been proven wrong.
Pretty sure @redalways feels the same way.

Agreed. That’s why I’m not bothering with him any more.

[Rambler]

@Bekloppt

a large number of people who are influenced, one way or another, by the ramblings of its owner.

If I went on the street in Liverpool and did a vox pop, my hunch is that I would struggle to find anyone who has looked at political content on Twitter (I refuse to call it X).

We are a relatively politically aware group but do we therefore grossly overestimate how interested the vast majority of people are in politics?

[Dane]

@Rambler

@Bekloppt

a large number of people who are influenced, one way or another, by the ramblings of its owner.

If I went on the street in Liverpool and did a vox pop, my hunch is that I would struggle to find anyone who has looked at political content on Twitter (I refuse to call it X).

We are a relatively politically aware group but do we therefore grossly overestimate how interested the majority of people are in politics?

I think people grossly over estimate how many people with Twitter accounts are remotely interested or in agreement with Musk’s drivel (despite follower numbers).

[peterroberts]

It’s precisely because most people are not interested in politics that makes this prick’s lies and distortions so dangerous. He’s got , if I’m not mistaken , over 200 million followers who presumably will default to the position that what he’s saying is true. As well as Starmer , Macron and Scholz have both called him out this week too.

The guy is a white supremacist , a conman and a troll and his wealth and his proximity to power make him uniquely dangerous.