Imagine the uproar if this happened in combat sports like martial arts or MMA, instead of non-contact swimming or running track.
This would not be the same conversation.
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It has happened and there was uproar. Iāll get the link
Trans MMA Fighter Beats Woman in Pro Debut - YouTube
As well as Alana McLaughlin in the link above, 8 years ago, Fallon Fox, the first transwoman MMA fighter beat up several pro MMA female competitors.
She ended the career of Erika Newsome when she
destroyed Erika Newsome in a Coral Gables, FL, MMA fight during which she āsecured a grip on Newsomeās headā¦ With her hands gripping the back of Newsomeās skull, she delivered a massive knee, bringing her leg up while pulling her opponentās head down. The blow landed on Newsomeās chin and dropped her, unconscious, face-first on the mat.ā That was Newsomeās last pro fight.
She also beat Tamikka Brents, giving her a concussion and breaking 7 orbital bones.
Brents was not told that Fox was trans before she was in the ring with her, the Post Millennial reported.
āIāve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night,ā Brents said, recounting her experience fighting Fox. āI canāt answer whether itās because she was born a man or not because Iām not a doctor. I can only say, Iāve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own rightā¦ I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isnāt fair.ā
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Wasnāt long ago in another thread that some were arguing that when properly trained, women police officers could handle themselves just as well as their male counterparts when push comes to shove. Utter bullshit.
Itās only a civil discourse if there are no transgender people around.
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Yes. If someone wants to consider themselves a she, then thatās it. No skin off my nose or your nose to call them that. You might not be aware of this, but putting their she in inverted commas is a really shitty, offensive, thing to do.
There is a whole different debate to be had about that transgender personās right to use female only spaces, enter female competitive environments etc, and thatās really hard - but the best place we can start, if we want to proceed to the harder stuff in good faith, is to respect a personās right to call themselves what they want.
Yes, it is. Iām sure youāre aware that Vancouver has a very established LGBTQ+ community here and youād have to be pretty ignorant not to understand their place in the world. And Iām all for all walks of life feeling included in society, because the factioning of that society leads to too many people pulling in too many directions and itās near fucking impossible to get some semblance of unity. One of the worst things that came out of Covid, was the us vs. them mentality that happened with the anti-vax vs the vax. And say what you will about the science behind it, some folks just donāt believe that vaccinations were the way to go. More power to them, if thatās their choice.
But thatās not the topic of discussion weāre having hereā¦
Which is all fine and good, until you have that person who decides that their decision to changes sexes should include competitive sport where their mature masculine physique prior to gender reassignment becomes an advantage. In my book, thatās not right. And apparently, itās not okay for FINA
You say that, but this isnāt the first thread that @Limiescouse has patiently tried to explain that the issue of transgender inclusion in competitive sport is a lot more nuanced than people seem to think, only to be accused of strawmanning and high-horsing.
@Quicksand said that everyone in this thread is well aware of what is involved in transitioning. A read through it, and quite a few threads before it, leads me to suspect they donāt.
And before anyone rounds on me, Iām not saying I do. I just know itās a lot more complicated than most people believe, and decisions to allow transgendered people to compete in females sports is a lot more nuanced and carefully thought through, measured and quantified than is assumed.
And then you get someone plucking an example from the fringe of the debate to cast doubt on everything else. Of course a transgendered person built like a brick shithouse shouldnāt have been allowed to step into a MMA fight with a woman half her size and beat the crap out of her (call me a bleeding heart liberal if you want, but I donāt think society should approve of any two people kicking the shit out of each other for entertainment)
Itās like those debates where someone goes āpolitical correctness has gone too farā and I go āI donāt think it hasā, do they go ālook at this thenā and post a link to a story that (presuming its true) is such a colossal fuck up from everyone concerned, often a stressed local authority trying to do the right thing and making a total hash of it, it does really show anything as itās not representative of anything.
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Youāre right about everything. I shall no longer comment on this thread.
Always grateful for when people bring their own expertise to a thread on here but thereās still an obligation, I hope, on engaging in discussions in good faith and not suggesting that anotherās viewpoint is as base as transwomen are just men with their dicks hidden behind their legs like in Silence of the Lambsā¦ when clearly that isnāt what anyone is saying.
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Which is exactly what I just said.
I donāt know what I think about transgender people in competitive sport. Itās really hard, and there is no easy answer, and probably no one size fits all easy ruling.
What I do know is that what someone chooses to identify as is their choice and you donāt have the right to mock or belittle that by putting it in inverted commas.
Just in case anyone hasnāt actually read the new FINA policy itās here
This is what it says regarding the appraisal of the Science Group that reported to FINA to inform their policy review
The Science Group was comprised of independent experts in the fields of physiology, endocrinology, and human performance, including specialists in sex differences in human performance and in transgender medicine. The task of the Science Group was to examine the most up-to-date scientific knowledge on (1) the impact of biological sex on athletic performance, and (2) the impact of gender-affirming medical transition on factors that influence athletic performance, and to produce a report setting out their findings.
The Science Group reported that biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty. The group reported that there are sex-linked biological differences in Aquatics, especially among elite athletes, that are largely the result of the substantially higher levels of testosterone to which males are exposed from puberty onwards. Prior to puberty, testosterone levels are similar in females and males. During puberty, however, testes-derived testosterone concentrations increase 20-fold in males, while testosterone concentrations remain low in females so that post-pubescent males have circulating testosterone concentrations at least 15 times higher than post-pubescent females (15-20 nmol/L in adult males versus c.1 nmol/L in typical females of any age). High testosterone levels generate not only anatomical divergence in the reproductive system but also measurably different body types/compositions between sexes.
According to the Science Group, if gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological
females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code.
How I understood @Limiescouseās point was that some of you evidently donāt understand the science that goes into setting thresholds for transgender participation in female sport, and the dicks tucked away thing was a turn of phrase that youāve leapt on to defend yourself.
I donāt think he seriously meant you actually believe that transgendered people have their dicks tucked away. He was suggesting that the idea that seems to persist that transgendered athletes are physically male in all but whatever theyāve decided to do with the genitalia, when itās actually a lot more nuanced than that. I have to admit that reading the thread, that was my impression as well
Thatās just not true in all cases. If I identify as a chair, I demand you take the piss out of me. Yes that is reductio ad adsurdum, but people canāt identify as simply anything and expect to be treated with reapect.
Itās like being inclusive for everybody. Surely not everybody, obviously.
And, like night follows day, off goes @Klopptimist to the extreme end of the issue with an example that is so far out there itās not even worth responding to.
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Hereās a link to the Joint Position Statement of the International Federation of Sports Medicine (FIMS) and European Federation of Sports Medicine Associations (EFSMA) in response to the 2021 IOC framework.
The evidence is mixed at best. There is plenty of research that seems to suggest that some advantages still remain (although it is narrowed).
I was clearly pointing out that you donāt have the right to identify as whatever you fancy and have the right to not be mocked. Your post implies you do.
and what I DO know is that when I asked you at what point a person can identify as a member of the opposite sex, you have accepted that moment to be when that person makes that decision.
You will also have to accept that whilst you may be more liberal in your views as to when that change becomes officialā¦ not everyone shares that view. Science may say that you cannot classify a male as a female when that male still produces active sperm? Others may say that whilst a person may identify as a female, the presence of a penis may designate that person as a male.
There appears to have been sufficient scientific evidence from the International Federation of Sports Medicine and the European Federation of Sports Medicine Associations, as well as the contribution by the Science Group specifically reporting into FINA that,
āif gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code.ā
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I mean, Iām NOT an expert on this stuff but they seem to suggest that there is some scientific evidence male puberty provides a relative physiological advantage that continues after transitioning and one that female athletes cannot (legally) acquire/replicate.
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