I think people are giving too much credit to China’s influence here. Yes it is large, and powerful, but some of the countries around it dislike that power and are content to act within their own sphere regardless of what China wants it to do. China was never going to send troops in to stop them from the overthrow.
If Myanmar continue to honour the economic deals it has with China, then China probably doesn’t care whether Myanmar is a democratic country or not. China has no guarantee that the Military will honour those deals because they dislike China’s power. There was much more certainty around Suu Kyi’s government doing so. Therefore it has to be careful on how it behaves in regards to Myanmar.
But the thing is many of my friends in China do not think they are deprived of anything. They have freedom of mobility, they still get global news albeit through dictated sources. From even as a Singaporean, I was thinking to myself "why would you think that a government that bans google or facebook, not trusting its citizen to discern, be good?’ But to them, there are aspirations that goes beyond such freedom of speech, freedom of press etc…
But then I would then use Singapore as an example again, where we are pretty open and educated and exposed to global ideas and politics but yet when Stephen Sackur asked our Minister Tharman “When journals that are respected and have a role to play, like The Far Eastern Economic Review, for years and years, are hounded by your government.”
Tharman: No, the rules are very clear and simple. Singapore is an extremely open society, by virtue of the number of foreign publications that are circulated — well over 5,000. The fact that Singaporeans are, probably more than any other society, broadband-penetrated, and the English-educated have access to a whole world of information on the Internet. It is an extreme open society. There is no doubt about it.
We are unconventional in requiring in our laws that we have the right to reply when foreign publications publish something that we feel is false or misleading. And when publications refuse to publish a reply, we impose restrictions on them that affect their advertising revenues. Unconventional, you might not agree with it, but the larger point is this: We all need some humility on the ways that best advance a liberal order. We all need some humility as to how we achieve that, not just for today, but for tomorrow. How do you sustain it? The most thoughtful observers in the West are of the view that you need some buffers, some margins of safety, and you need some compromises on some liberties in order to achieve others.
And the freest possible media is not the only liberty we aspire to. I do think it’s a good idea, by the way, it appeals to my ideals, but it is not the only liberty you aspire to. You do aspire to a liberty of being able to walk the streets freely, particularly if you’re a woman or a child, at any time of the night; you aspire to the liberty of living in a city that is not defined by its most disorderly elements; you aspire to the liberty of having the opportunity for an education and a job, regardless of your race or social background; and you aspire to a liberty of practising your religion without fear of bigotry or discrimination. Those are very important liberties in many societies, and they are lacking in many societies.
And don’t get me wrong, I do not think the West and much of the East would ever agree on each other’s style of system…I just think its sad that whatever system is in place, that ultimately people suffer when it is being abused by those in power.
But the abuse of power is much more likely in a one party state where there is no choice of rulers. You are lucky that Singapore is a benevolent dictatorship and both it and China have been economically prosperous. The people will put up with a lack of freedom if they are materially well off, but the test of any system is when things don’t go so well and the population ask why.
I agree. What I have been saying is not that democracy is no good or that Singapore or China has a better system. There are many countries in this world, hell, right at my doorstep, I have neighbouring countries that have both democractic systems and dictatorship systems with people still suffering. So to me, the prosperity of countries or the suffering of people do not depend on a system, it depends on the people running it. And you have to also understand from this end of the world, many of us do not really envy the western style of democracy, we see it as a bane at times.
Maybe Singapore is an anomaly to you guys but I only know enough of my own country to say this, and to quote Lee Kuan Yew again on valuing prosperity over democracy:
“You’re talking about Rwanda or Bangladesh, or Cambodia, or the Philippines. They’ve got democracy … But have you got a civilized life to lead? People want economic development first and foremost. The leaders may talk something else. You take a poll of any people. What is it they want? The right to write an editorial as you like? They want homes, medicine, jobs, schools.”
They have that as a system in terms of hardware, but we all can see how corrupted the people running it are. I have no idea about Bangladesh maybe, @Iftikhar can advise us better.
It’s not only about writing editorials. It’s about being able to speak freely with your family, your friends and your workmates. I live in Berlin, and the ghosts of repression are all around. People have fought and died for freedom, not only here but all over the world. As I said, material wealth will keep people quiet for some time, but there’s more to life than that.
I would say that is very one dimensional. And even then, should not that be a result of good government? Honestly, I am very happy here in Singapore not because of material wealth. I am happy because I have access to good healthcare, good basic housing, food security, in essence the basics. I am happy that my mother and sister can walk in the streets at 3am and be safe. I mean for the sake of discussion, this would get thrown back now in pandemic times, over here, the government says wear your mask, you can do this, you cannot do that, most people just follow. For good or for bad, decisive government and the people followed and managed to suppress the pandemic to a manageable level. And then when we look at the western world where personal freedom is of utmost importance, we see people ignoring restrictions, a million americans insisting on travelling during Christmas and we know how that pan out.
So to me, we have to look at systems as systems…Democracy has brought about many good things, but it is not perfect, no system is, you can say it is a better system, but I don’t buy the narrative of a better system only a system that is suitable and we cannot be going around shoving it down as a system to everyone. Each country has to find that system or hybrid that works for them to benefit the people.
@gasband what is the crime and corruption situation in Singapore?
About Bangladesh
After the ruling party won 95% of the seats in our last general election in December 2018, the chairperson of the foreign affairs committee of German Parliament tweeted: this sort of result you can only expect in places like North Korea.
I think the last proper election we had was (probably) in 2013 when the opposition party won in four major cities (mayor & city council). Apart from that all elections since 2008 have been marred by violence, intimidation, fraud etc. and 200+ people have been killed in election related violence.
I heard Al Jazeera is airing a series All the PM’s Men regarding the crime and corruption by people from inner circle of the PM. I haven’t watched it, in fact, although I have great interest in politics, I don’t follow local developments.
Several hundred (nobody knows the exact number) people have gone missing since 2008 and an estimated 3000 people have died in mysterious circumstances. In both cases law enforcement agencies (specially RAB) are involved.
Bangladesh is a grim reading, so I will spare you at this point.
What with pissing off the EU, cosying up to Trump and thereby pissing off the new US administration, pissing off the Russians with the Magnitsky legislation, and now pissing off the Chinese by passporting 100s of thousands of citizens of Hong Kong…I think it’s fair to say that the UK simply doesn’t appear to give a shit anymore.
Anyone else left? Gotta be the Saudis next, surely. About time we took a meaningful stand regarding their human rights abuses.
I think someone should tell the government that simply having two of the most advanced aircraft carriers doesn’t make us billy big bollocks.
Makes little sense that China ordered this. This is about the old boys (generals) wanting total power again. China won’t see them sanctioned though, but little reason to think China was behind it. Doesn’t really make any sense.
