There’s a fundamental problem with how candidates are chosen when the consideration is: Do I for the person I abhor, the second coming of beelzebub, the devil incarnate who’ll trash the country and further feather his gold plated nest or his evil twin brother?
Listen to the centrists, they know better than you. You don’t have the moral high ground, because they do.
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The highest imperative is to eject Trump. I’m not overly pleased with Biden, but Trump is disastrous on numerous levels. Ideally an election throws up good candidates and you select which is better. In this instance the choice is uninspiring v worst I’ve ever seen, by a large margin.
It’s a no brainer.
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If Sanders had got the party vote I would advocate exactly the same thing, to centralists who would have thought he was too socialist. Sanders himself is telling people to vote for Biden.
The logic that not voting somehow helps socialist change in society, is not a premise I agree with.
I would say that
- Trump has normalized right-wing, libertarian views, and will continue to do so.
- He is embedding right-wing politics for years to come. Everyone today is talking about Barrett, however as distasteful as it sounds its not unimaginable that during his next term he could be finding a replacement for Breyer.
- Socialism has an image problem in the US, to the extent its a dirty word and many fear it. A shift in perceptions is required before you can shift society.
- Change is easier with Biden in charge. Be it through influence or protest.
- Counting on the pendulum swinging from right to left, for me is a huge gamble. The center may simply become further to the right. Even worse the right goes from strength to strength, thriving on division and disinformaiton.
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Completely agree with the image problem about socialism. I never use the word in political conversation with friends and colleagues over here. Might as well say communism or paedophile or something. The shutters go down when certain words are used, and socialism is perceived as a great evil.
I try out different ways of saying sharing, or talk in terms of helping more people to win.
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Why are you trying to persuade me to vote for Biden when a) I can’t anyway b) as you know I would if I could? Though with much less hope than you and a great deal of doubt.
I’d just leave the ‘taking the moral high ground’ stuff out when you’re apparently trying to persuade someone who actually could vote. There’s a bit of projection going on there imho - fair enough, we all do it.
If the majority of people eligible to vote either refuse to vote or, if the option is available, vote ‘none of the above’, does that mean that nobody gets elected? No. Therefore, what’s the point - whatever your reason for objecting to the candidates being put forward for elected office, your voice is not heard.
It’s shit but that’s how it is in the US and most other ‘democratic’ countries. What are you going to do about it because sitting at home with your thumb up your arse whilst raging into the ether on social media counts for jack shit.
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The ‘good’ thing about Biden is he is so old he probably won’t last a full term. Don’t know much about his running mate but she seems okay (don’t know alot about Biden either apart from he seems past it). She’s certainly better than Trump but that’s not hard.
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I think that prospect is what might change @DioufGates mind in the end.
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He’s 78 next month and already seems a bit distant at times.I think Harris may find herself being the first female president of the us of a within the next 4 yrs.
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Yeah, sure. It was a joke. I think it’s fair to say DioufGates is not exactly a fan of hers from what I’ve gathered.
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but thats how democracy is… and the US probably exercise democracy to the max…you always have a choice. I hope one day their system changes…but while I do not like both Biden and Trump, I still think you have to choose one of the ones that fit closer to your ideal, whether its Biden or Trump. But again, its a choice that everyone is free to make in the US, unlike in Singapore, where it is compulsory to vote (although the penalty is just $50 if you do not have a valid reason)
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I completely understand the idea that people feel disenfranchised and powerless by options they feel do not represent them. Believe me, I have done a lot of voter outreach in literally disenfranchised neighborhoods hear and have spoken to a lot of people we were trying to help about how our efforts being a waste of time because they wouldnt vote anyway. But you know what gives politicians an even greater incentive to the creation and maintenance of a crony state? Not holding politicians accountable with your vote and instead removing yourself from the process. Voting is merely a part of that process. If this stuff matters enough to you think that even more change is needed, then do the follow through. Continue your engagement once the election is over. That is no less important than voting, but you need the right person in office, at all levels of government, that allow you a platform to be heard. And that is why all the most prominent progressive voices are all strongly and unambiguously supporting Biden.
People are complex. The idea that someone is going to fully represent you is not realistic. You dont get complete alignment on these things with your spouse, or even with your progeny who are literally made from you. You are of course not going to get it from your politician. So how much alignment is required to decide to back someone? I get for many people, especially in the US where those most disenfranchised by the system are likely to have the hardest time voting, that bar might need to be quite high to justify the effort it requires to cast a vote. And that is why I continue to do the community organizing I do. If I can help lower the barrier to vote, then the bar it being a worthwile exercise is lowered and the politicians are then made to feel more accountable. Especially if you can continue to engage these communities to stay involved after that election.
There is always a difference between the candidates. As much as I don’t buy the idea that “they’re just the same, it doesn’t matter” from a philosophical level, my issue is in this specific case the nature of the specific criticisms being leveled.
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Not my point. Never said there is no difference between the candidates. Nor am I advocating for not voting. I do get the point made though and it’s not as stupid as people make it out to be imo. If you want to change the Democratic party for example it’s not exactly an incentive for them to change if you keep voting for them anyway.
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That’s a strategy argument. I don’t agree with it but see why someone might argue it, at least in the abstract (not right now). But I took your post as an implied defense of Noyd’s position (a criticism of critics of Noyd’s position? Is that the same thing? I dont know), which is not that there are more effective ways right now to produce the Democratic party you want, but that Biden is not deserving of support because he’s a racist, pedophile crook who IS no different than Trump.
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I specifically didn’t like the ‘moral high ground’ line, I see that far too often. Imo both sides of that debate regularly argue from a position of what they perceive as being the moral high ground.
I agree, is that something what they call cancel culture nowadays? Is that if you do not agree to what the majority is pushing, you are insert whatever names they call nowadays. I just think if people are told they have the right to choose, then they should really be treated as that, even if they choose the option that is wrong to you.
I have no problem personally judging the stance of someone else from a moral perspective, but I’m a bit of a dick anyway. Yet despite my personal comfort with judging others, I dont think it is a productive direction to take in the context of argumentation and persuasion. My introduction to political activism was during the Bush-Gore campaign as a result of Bush’s “morality” based anti-gay platform. I got involved as a result of me taking the moral high ground and was met by people on the other side thinking they were doing exactly the same thing.
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This is something which I find fascinating, and also utterly stunning. Socialism was quite strong in your country during the early stages of the XXth century if I remember well? I’d love to know more about how it came to that.
Here in Switzerland, a large majority of people have the tendency to count on themselves first and foremost, and encounter everything state-related with quite some mistrust. Nonetheless, our Socialist party is the second strongest political formation in the country, and most would agree that they are needed in order to preserve an equilibrium within the country, in order to counterbalance the prevailing neoconservative ideology. Apart for a minority, the word ‘socialism’ is far from being a dirty word or something.
Back in November the UK had a choice between a known liar and a lazy c*** and a full on socialist with about as much leadership oomph as a crisps wrapper and possibly some other issues I wont mention
oh i’d vote for corbyn
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