Ding Dong.....the US Politics Thread (Part 1)

The end of the second world war focused American domestic and foreign policy on the Soviet Union and the larger fight against communism. That was as much a domestic issue as a foreign policy issue. If you haven’t heard of him, read up on Senator Joe McCarthy. The country approached the issue in their characteristically American way, full of contradications, misunderstandings and vitriolic anger to something they didnt really understand nor care to take the time to. That this era kicked in during the time the country was newly benefiting from FDR’s New Deal says everything.

But the use of “socialist” as a pejorative is part of what I have raged against repeatedly, in that the main stream press in this country routinely adopts the Right’s framing of issues. When do Republicans ever have to defend themselves against accusation of being a conservative? No one would ever lob that as an “accusation”. More often than not, the arguments are about whether a Republican is a fake conservative or not.

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I grew up in England and moved to the States in my mid-late 30s, about 12 yrs ago.

My take on why socialism became a no-go sort of expression is to do with the Cold War. The great struggle for a few decades was defeating communism, principally the USSR, but also other expressions around the world.

For some reason, Communism and Socialism have become conflated in many people’s minds. Lots of Americans grew up on the idea that America stood for freedom, and would fight communism/socialism around the world because doing so is an absolute good, and will help people.

It’s not very sophisticated, but neither is the electorate!

Earlier in the 20th Century America was more socialist, though I’m not sure how much the word was used. Roosevelt helped the country out of the Great Depression with the New Deal, which, while not academically pure socialism, was certainly socialist in terms of government reaching in to help build the country and build the economy. FD Roosevelt was President for a long time, and after his time a limit of two terms, or 8 years, was put on the Presidency.

In my opinion Roosevelt’s policies nurtured the middle class and the sense of the American Dream, as America prospered in the fifties and sixties. There was a very large middle class, and even though it is all desperately old fashioned now, there was a strong sense that if you worked hard you could buy a place in the suburbs, own a car, and usually only the income of the husband was needed to sustain that lifestyle, and the wife was championed as mother and home maker.

In later years the country changed. Reagan benefits from a schmaltzy sort of avuncular personality, but in many ways he was just as bad for America as Thatcher was for the UK. If you are at the top of the economic pile you will likely think both were good for their countries, but what happened was a massive widening between rich and poor.

A massive underclass sprang up, and the idea that you could work hard and have a decent job and a decent middle class family life started to disappear. The middle class shrunk and the money flowed to the top.

Several decades of that sort of thing has got us to where we are now. The gap between rich and poor is enormous. The cycle of poverty, and related problems it brings - crime, guns, drugs, little or no health care, poor education and bad schools, etc. - is desperately difficult to break out of.

Technically speaking, the sort of socialism that FD Roosevelt helped to garner would help the country enormously. Rebuild it. Give people good jobs, on a living wage, so they have dignity and worth, and a middle class grows up again. It’s fine if people get rich from taking a risk, innovating, working hard, etc. But to have multi-billionaires make so much, and pay so little in taxes, while many of their employees also claim government benefits and assistance because they don’t make enough money to live… that has got to be wrong.

But unfortunately the word “socialist” has been hijacked, and is perceived as a great evil.

So to my mind, in the very small way I can do, among friends and colleagues, I talk about fairness, sharing, and particularly, helping as many people as possible to win. When the conversation is cast in those terms, there’s a lot more common ground to be found.

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Google Eugene Debs.

I raised more than a few eyebrows at Michigan by living in Debs House.

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Brilliant, cheers lads.

McCarthy is of course known to me, and the irony of it taking place in the midst of the New Deal isn’t lost on me! :thinking:

I also couldn’t agree more with RedOverTheWater’s take on how Roosevelts New Deal policy could do a lot of good presently, not only in the US btw. It’s stunning to think that anyone daring to present such a political program nowadays would be immediately tagged as socialist, communist, or worse.

I wonder when we will start to see a change in that tendency in the US. The more poverty, the more inequality, the higher the chances of a groundbreaking wave of change. Hopefully it won’t be too destructive though… what happened during the thirties in Europe should be a warning for us all.

It’s stunning to think that anyone daring to present such a political program nowadays would be immediately tagged as socialist, communist, or worse.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1320596269086187520

no different than george w bush’s former press secretary nicolle wallace smiling at biden and practically holding his hand through a softball interview

Those two are separated by well over a decade. Nominally, the New Deal was 1933-1939. McCarthy really was 1950-54 in terms of the Red Scare hearings.

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Yeah you are right, what I meant is that the fifties were profiting most from the effects of the New Deal.

I googled Eugene Debs. A fascinating personality without a doubt. I hadn’t heard about him until today.

So for you, the main problem is orchestrated bias in the media? You might be right about that.

If I was a US citizen, I’d vote for Sanders without a doubt btw.* And if like now, he wouldn’t be candidate, then I’d listen to what he recommends and vote accordingly.


*but I’m not subjected to US media bias to be fair.

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I’m incredibly mixed on this. I firmly believe that you persuade people by framing it in ways that resonate with their perspective. So yeah, you’ll never convince a conservative of the merits of socialism without focusing the argument on the ways it benefits them on issues that matter to them.

But I also reject the idea of running away from a word that shouldnt be toxic.

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To be honest, I had not heard of him before moving into the co-operative house named after him.

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So, it’s not the one in Indiana then? The one which was sold for 9’500 $? :laughing:

The naming of AoC’s Green New Deal is not accidental. It was done precisely to reframe it as an economic development program as much as an environmental one. But it was immediately demonized as being communist.

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So for you, the main problem is orchestrated bias in the media? You might be right about that.

i mean, sanders got off easy compared to corbyn

MSNBC started rehabilitating bush-era republican scumbags like rick wilson & steve schmidt before trump even took office. their boomer viewers have a higher opinion of john mccain–a vile racist warmonger–than sanders

biden ensures that revulsion of trump doesn’t cut into raytheon or united healthcare profits, that’s his role

That would be an old home of his - the Michigan co-op was named in his honour, but AFAIK no direct connection to the building or the co-op.

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Contrary to the often floated idea of the ‘Bernie personality cult’, that is apparently not how many of his supporters operate.

love this photo:

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pure projection from liberals

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Fair comment and I have a lot of sympathy with this too. There needs to be a massive educational drive as some words have been bastardized, and socialism is definitely one of those.

I don’t feel especially good about it, but when people are deeply convinced that socialism is all bad, it’s easier to make progress if we talk about sharing, fairness, and helping as many as possible to win.

As a tiny example, the schools our kids go to have money, resources, equipment, etc. yet just 10 miles down the road the IPS schools have nothing. It is common each year to do a school supply drive and partner with a school in another district to make sure their kids start the year with the supplies they need.

Ironically, most parents think that is an absolute good thing to do… even though in these parts most of them will vote Republican and will be adamant that socialism is evil!

i voted for gore in 2000, the first time i was eligible. he rolled over as they stole the election from him in florida, and now a third of the supreme court consists of republican hack goons who worked on bush v gore (alito, barrett, kavanaugh iirc)

even among mainstream democrats, biden is egregiously ‘bipartisan’. he loves republicans and hates the left. he even praised this scumbag barrett. he’s not going to change

the democrats are telegraphing that the future is sociopathic strivers like copmala and CIA pete. there’s no future with the democrats

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So what’s the plan for you? Third party?