I donât think itâs even controversial that Trump was fairly successfull with working class voters, he seems to appeal to low-propensity voters especially.
Whether theyâll regret it / change their mind over time weâll see. Not like that has never happened.
No, the controversy from my point of view seems to be:
- The claim that the working class voted for Trump because of a supposed radical Democrat woke gender ideology
- The claim that the working class is primarily rural
- The refusal to reply to @Limiescouse and @Arminiusâ rebuttals to the specious claims made
- Personally, the claim that working class voters are a single bloc who can be explained so simply
I wish the ICC had âtargetedâ the US and Trump personally. The US for having committed a number of war crimes throughout its military engagements and Trump for posing a clear and direct danger to the entire world.
@toro just want to say I am glad you are active in the thread.
Regardless of whether I agree or disagree, in American politics people are demonizing one another and talking past one another. From a Democrat perspective, there has to be some serious consideration given to who they are, who they are trying to reach, and with what message, such that it will move the dial.
Itâs a fair point that the underlying assumptions have shifted, and the Democrats cannot assume the working class vote, or the black vote, and so on. A disconnect has fomented, and the Democrats need to meaningfully get a message across and win hearts and minds if they are to get back into power.
Nationally speaking the margins are still fairly close, and the situation should not be irretrievable, but it is now the time of Trump and the Democrats have work to do.
On another note, living here in America I hear far more about trans issues from the right wing than the left wing. I think the right wing shout about it a lot, and donât really have much nuance, or empathy. But somehow to the average uneducated Trump voter you describe, the issue is distilled to an image of a 200lb bloke squishing a 130lb girl in high school sports, and that violates everyoneâs sense of fair play and should not be allowed⌠but that sort of framing of the issue is superficial and unhelpful.
There is a really frantic shifting of the goal posts that has happened in this conversation the last day or so.
There is a real debate that needs to be had over what the Dems need to do to win back favour among the working class, and to shed the perception they are out there fighting culture war issues at the expense of things the median voter doesnt care about. But just because the public currently agrees with the GOP framing of hot button issues like their trans attacks, doesnt mean it is actually correct to call Imane Khelif a man, or that overly simplistic perceptions of biology are actually correct. There is certainly a (gross) political strategy that goes in that direction where trans people get thrown under the bus, but you cannot defend the idea that the RW framing of biological sex is correct just because it is currently popular as keeps being done in this conversation. It is not a complex idea to keep those two things separate.
One interesting thing to keep in mind when it comes to the politics though is it was only a few years ago that the GOP took a huge hit for their support of âbathroom billsâ, the first time the trans issue really came into public consciousness. It was seen as mean, unnecessary, and the public understood at that time there was more complexity over the issue than they were presenting. This is not an unwinnable argument. It is just one where the Dems actually ceded too much ground recently allowing the RW framing to be the only thing people heard. This is exact opposite of how people like Toro are viewing the situation as to who is making their position a priority in their platform.
No idea what kind of a âfrantic shiftâ youâre talking about. I never said that the framing was correct or that I want to see trans people thrown under the bus.
You can come to the conclusion that youâre (currently) losing many people on a position wirhout having to abandon it in principle. Not acknowledging thereâs a problem with messaging wonât help imo
Sorry, I was elaborating on your point not suggesting you were shifting. There is a person in this conversation presenting the political success of GOP framing as validation of it ifs truthfulness, and every time he is challenged to defend his position shifts back to presenting the popularity of the argument.
Just to be clear which side is peddling hate & division and which side is promoting a safe broadly establishment view âŚ
Just this may actually be the difference to how each side views this argument .
Musk arguing that if Trump doesnt win this might be the last free election we get in our lifetime is a great example of this. This was one of his most eager and common messages the last 3 months or so of the campaign.
I wonder if it stems from Youngkinâs despicable lies in the 2021 election.
I honestly donât know when the dynamic started shifting, but once it started it was like a boulder already rolling downhill. I wonder if someone like Contrapoints has tried to dig through that
With this stuff though I think a big part of the answer always comes back to Covid and the virulent anti-social reaction, typically counterfactual, that was generated in response to that 12 month or so period.
Government just suspended a $5B grant program to states to build electric vehicle charging capacity. One wonders wtf Musk is thinking vis-a-vis Tesla.
Heâs making way more money elsewhere. Better for him to kneecap everyone else.
Fetterman spent a good portion of last year talking shit about Dem voters and doing so to go to bat for the Dem establishment/Biden administration that said voters were unhappy with and warning they were willing to walk away from.
What next, posting a video of âfamed liberalâ Bill Maher criticizing the Dems?
I am not sure that he is. X/Twitter is losing money, and is no longer publicly held. SpaceX is losing money, and total revenue is a fraction of his most recent personal income. It appears they have had some success with private placements, but it is not clear that provides any liquidity. A huge percentage of his worth is tied up in Tesla.
I saw it reported in Bloomberg that his wealth has increased over 70% since Trumpâs election and he is now in a position to award his own companies Government contracts whenever he feels like it.
Heâll be the first Trillionaire before the end of this Presidency.
Tesla is still not REALLY a car company though. From a business perspective it is still closer to a speculative trading asset, and the more time that passes the less likely this valuation can be realized by any actual business the company can do.
I am not sure what the play is, but I think Musk understands at this point that a good and honest market battle among EV manufactures does not result in the valuation of Tesla being sustained.
Right - but that is because since election day, Tesla stock has gone from $250 to a high of $479. But it is down to $370 now, and policy like this will put Tesla into a freefall. Non-American sales are already collapsing, this will hammer US sales - which his antagonism toward a huge part of his customer base will already be doing.