Damning with faint criticism? Worst moment for me that confirmed his time was up was when he was subbed on against West Brom and proceeded to be completely ineffectual including passing the ball out of play under no pressure at all while we were desperately chasing the game and ended up needing the Allison wondergoal.
1 Like
No, it wasnāt.
Jota was injured almost the entire season and Firmino continued with the dip in form he was experiencing from the previous season. Even Mane was at his worst, by his own admission.
It was the perfect situation for Origi, Shaqiri, or Takumi to challenge the pecking order. It didnāt happen.
6 Likes
Well, I have to disagree with that to be honest. Our defence was in tatters, and our midfield deeply unsettled due to the fact that Fabinho and Hendo had to play in central defence, before they got injured too themselves. So, the fluidity of our moves and the precise and quick transmission of the ball we had seen during the previous seasons came to an end. Our football was laboured, and our make-shift defence needed more protection than usually.
In those circumstances, Klopp went with his strongest attacking trio, with the lads most likely to produce something from nothing. I think that all these injuries, and all our struggles coming along with them, impeded Shaqās, Divockās and Minaās chances to get more playing time, not the contrary.
5 Likes
If Klopp had been offered a free scoring attack to take the pressure off the chances of the midfield and defence being overrun and us conceding a goal or two per game he would have snapped your hand off. He went for stability as it was the best option. If heād had Haaland and Mbappe sitting on the bench instead of Shaqiri and Origi no way he makes the same decision. Klopp makes the best of bad situations that doesnāt mean heād make the same decisions in situations that arenāt as bad. Guy is amazing, a genius, no other manager can build and keep a project running with so little finances required in the transfer market. We wouldnāt be achieving anything these days without him.
While I get that the injuries across the defense, midfield and attack would have forced Kloppās hands to a bit to continue with stability, itāll always be the case to prefer the first team players when some players go missing. But in my opinion that just defeats the purpose of having squad players who could fill in when needed.
Jota as an example was used whenever available; Tsimikas being made to settle in being his first season wasnāt used despite Robbo needing rest. But the likes of Divock and Shaq have been for a while with us and understand the system. If not trusted during the time they are needed the most, when can they be trusted? We canāt have them just to bring in when things are going absolutely fine and just to rest players when we are up by few goals.
2 Likes
Looking back I wonder what Klopp thinks. A decimated defense so keep the attack the same, so as not to unsettle it, despite them not scoring but unsettle the midfield placing the most important pieces in the defense (also putting a new arrival in there whenever possible). Then when shit hits the fan bring in 2 new CBs, play one of them from the off after no training sessions with the squad. Then at the end arrive at something stable with donkeys that were sitting around as cover anyway.
It seemed odd to me for a manager who puts so much emphasis on training. I know Nat isnāt good enough and exposing Williams at his age would have been an enormous risk however so was what was done (I think that was unavoidable).
My point is that it seems odd to argue that the attack was kept together so as not to unsettle it yet unsettle the midfield and defense in such a manner. Which means that outside of a certain group within the squad Klopp didnāt trust his own squad that he trains, thatās my extreme take.
I was not against bringing in Kabak for example however the fact he played the game 3 days after arriving was mind boggling anyone who says any different is on a different planet to me.
So if your going to unsettle the defense and midfield why not throw a shaq/AOC or origi on for 30 minutes now and again?
For me we got through to the end of the season by restabalising the midfield, just my opinion. So yes the stability is important but isnāt what Klopp tried with either the defense or the midfield.
1 Like
I hear what you say @Hope.in.your.heart . But,
Origi or Shaqiri arenāt any inexperienced newbies like Neco or Tsimikas. I understand why Takumi wasnāt used much in the given context. But,
Shaqiri and Origi should have made themselves count when we needed them most.
3 Likes
Haaland and Mbappe also happen to be rather decent at pressing too, arenāt they? If the choice was with prime Dimitar Berbatov or Daniel Sturridge, I think weād still stick with the front 3.
They have their moments, theyāre just not the most effective at pressing. If weāre under pressure to score but otherwise completely dominating the match, thatās when theyāre usually deployed, even so last season. Except for the West Ham match, when we saw the rather bizarre situation of Origi coming on for defending corners and not actually staying as far up the pitch as he normally would otherwise.
Itās not coincidental that while heās good, heās still not physically up to being an effective presser in the league yet. I reckon if he had a bit more muscle on him, we would have seen him instead of Firmino for many a match last season, and that one of Origi or Shaqiri would have been off instead.
Was Shaq even fit for a lot of last season? I thought he was carrying an injury, certainly until the last stages.
I think itās fair to say Shaqiri is a tactical mismatch with how Klopp wants to play. I donāt think heās ever really fancied him.
1 Like
I think itās his height. We lost a lot of height from the team last year, and dropping Taki for Bobby would make a big difference to how we defend set pieces. I can see why Klopp couldnāt offer him games last season.
1 Like
According to transfermarkt, he wasnāt injured after December, but I seem to recall that he was carrying an injury every now and then as wellā¦
I think itās quite confusing, when we first brought him in I thought he was meant to be a straight backup for Salah, not knowing much about him. Yet heās been deployed centrally quite often as well, even though thatās a role that requires more pressing intensity, which he often is criticised for. Iām not even sure right now where heās best deployed in. Perhaps itās one of those situations where with all his injuries, we kind of evolved our play without him so much so that he doesnāt fit anymore. Still leaves us with a Champions League and a Premier League so I donāt think heāll consider his time here as too much of a lossā¦
1 Like
Perhaps, because he was being eased in slowly into the team at first, and it looked like he was just physically lost at times, so I made that connection there. Definitely he didnāt offer an advantage over Origi in that respect, but then again, the likes of ManĆ© and Salah arenāt that tall either, but you wouldnāt say they couldnāt compete aerially. I wonder if itās something he can pick up as wellā¦
I wonder what would have happened if, say, Bobby or Sadio would have been injured for six months or so, while Jota was out too, and either Origi or Shaq would have had a regular run in the first team. Maybe one of them could have shown his value. Bit-part appearances within a decimated first-team, often playing without any kind of consistency, was never going to bring the best out of them.
That is by no means a criticism of Klopp. I think he had his hands firmly tied behind his back last season, and made the most with what he had. But to conclude that Shaq and Origi werenāt worthy back-up options isnāt fair imo. Regarding Shaq, injuries prevented him often to be counted as reliable option when needed, but in the case of Big Div, I feel a bit sorry for him to be honestā¦
Generally, I think that fans are too prone to give up on squad players, and to want change even when they arenāt really needed.
2 Likes
This is it in a nutshell for me. I find it hard to judge anyone negatively from that shitshow of a season, our team went through massive disruption. I remember reading something that pointed out that once a player was injured, they would have to drop out of the bubble, which meant that even the faces around in training werenāt constant. Phillips had his limitations, as did Kabak and Williams, but imagine them training with Matip, Virgil, and Gomez?
2 Likes
Agreed. I think that trio (OST) will always keeps us wondering (and debating 
) about the what ifs.
On another, not totally unrelated, issue; I always wished Klopp would field the youngsters and fringe players alongside some of the regulars so that thereās some structure. Bunching some kids and fringe is just chaos.
2 Likes
Iām not sure about that, definitely Minamino seems to be a solid part of our plans. In fact, I was wondering if he might also have been another factor to Shaqiri looking to leave, since heās also quite versatile positionally. I seem to recall us using him in central midfield at one point, as well as on the wings. Ox is another one who plays a similar range of positions, so Shaqiri is looking really redundant at this point.
Agreed, I think this is what our cup runs were missing, but I think with our injuries last season it was inevitable that it would happenā¦ The kids have still done pretty well for themselves mostly when given the chance however.
1 Like
True to an extent. But I think it depends on the specific player.
If itās someone like Jones or Elliott thereās an obvious hope and expectation they can develop to a high level and eventually push for a starting role.
With a player like Shaqiri or Lovren when he was here, itās easier to recognize their limitations and knowing they arenāt necesssarily dependable to perform when needed.
Then there are players in between that perhaps people give up on too soon like Minamino or Naby or Origi, but then itās equally easy to get to a point where how many chances are too many?
I like to think of it from a different perspective. My mindset is always, what can we do from this current position? It doesnāt matter how many chances someoneās been given before or not. As a far-fetched example, Firminoās been great for us, and despite the inconsistent form, is still an important player. But what if PSG were to come in with a deal for Mbappe in exchange for Firmino and (not too much) cash?
Conversely, Origiās been here for so many seasons now, but if thereās no upgrade available for the team thatās value-for-money, is there a point in moving on a settled squad player? Iām only comfortable with letting Shaqiri go because itās his desire to move on, which means he already is unsettled.
Keitaās not been the most reliable physically thus far, but with what we could get for him on the market, could we get an upgrade, or even just avoid a downgrade? Iām not sure, especially since he wasnāt actually injury-prone before coming here, and indeed did play an important role in our title-winning season. He was also great until getting injured in the first leg of the Barcelona semi-final in his first season here.
On the other hand, Wilson has never āgotten a proper chanceā here, but for what we could sell him for, it was worth moving him on. Same with Brewster, or Solanke, or Ings.
1 Like
Nabyās issues are purely due to recurring injuries. His quality is not in discussion I think. When fit, heās a first team player without a doubt. As for the likes of Minamino, Origi and Shaq, they didnāt get a chance to show their qualities last season, that was my point. As said before, it wasnāt their fault, nor Kloppās.
That said, Shaqās time with us is clearly over. I wonder where heāll land. His last experience in Italy wasnāt great, so I wonder whether heāll go there again. Culturally and in football terms, it should be a good fit for him.
How does one mention The Cube and Lovren in the same sentence? 
Shaq imo is much better than some are making out. Definitely had a knack of being in the right place at the right time with the tools to place a great assist.
Defensively quite decent at cutting out passing lanes (which Btw is more than Salah offers). If he was fit I would have used him last season on the right or left (in place of Firmino) with Salah in the middle. Itās not like we had a decent press last season and I reckon Shaq could have done a better job defending than Salah did (will explain that if anyone whatās to know). Iām not saying Iād have played him all the time but some of it like ārotationā squad members do.
Anyway he had 1 really crap sub in and thatās all that counts ā¦ and I thought I was extreme. 