I think most posters have said that players get a free hit with last years performances.
Arne’s safe pass ethos really hurt our players thought process, and I saw, against Ipswich, more players throwing off those shackles and playing positive foward passes.
Well they did, from me.
The whole season was shit, for everyone.
Clean slate time for them all as far as I’m concerned.
Add to that, a bit of time to get up & running with the new coach.
I agree - Wirtz is not very good.
But the ‘free pass’ thing - what does it mean? Do we want him dropped? Do we want him being criticized more by media, pundits, social media, TAN,…
Maybe ask what’s actually the problem! What’s the possible solution?
I’ve said mine the other day (but that doesn’t mean I’m right). Don’t think the sole #10 works for us/him. He’s too close to the box and have to overcome too many opponents on his own. Would like to see him as an #8.
Another thing - and I know that’s a naive one - Wirtz should watch all the highlights of Phil Coutinho at Liverpool. Similar type of players and basically our last real #10.
I am at acomplete loss, 1st why it was given by the ref as he was close or secondly why VAR didn’t intervene, unless it was because of whta the ref said.
However it was a complete farce, blatant penalty and another failure of the referees, VAR and so called consistency.
The Gakpo is deffo a penalty as the tackle was late and dangerous.
Watch which bits, including the ones where he shoots all the time when a better pass is on.
People do have short memories, he was good but also he frustrated as well, but that is what you get with players of their ilk, they will both frustrate and elate you.
Wirtz could easily have another assist and a goal if it wasn’t for player being off side and both were tight offisides and then all would be rosy.
Yes he does need to be stronger and he was particularly poor the 2nd half but he also needs to receive better passes that aren’t received same time as the man.
Phil’s 50 goals in 200 games gave him every right to shoot and 50 assists at the same time show that he wasn’t selfish on the pitch.
Thing is, Phil played predominantly off the left as it was the only way we could get him to work. The problem we’re facing with Wirtz is that’s the position where we’re already strongest and just recruited another £100m+ player to play there.
I’ll admit to still holding out hope for Wirtz, I think he’s a very clever but also very subtle player, constantly trying little things that don’t stand out as much as a lung-busting run into the area. Right now those are rarely paying off, but my hope is that as he plays more with a consistent set of team-mates under and attacking-minded manager, people with get on the same wavelength as him (and vice versa) and then we’ll see him start to shine.
People keep using phrases like “grab games by the scruff of the neck” in relation to Flo, but I think even at his best that’s not the type of player he is. I think he is, though, someone who can elevate those around him in a team that’s performing well.
Should we expect more from a £100m+ player? Possibly. But he’s ours now and we need to find a way to set him up to succeed, rather than expect him to be someone he’s not.
This is what happens when thread opening is merit based. Just like an Iraola lineup.
QS, maybe it’s best you start giving masterclasses here, so that in case you’re sick or away, we can let you off the hook with a reliable sub.
Phil was good but as I said he frustrated a lot of fans with his shooting all the time, when there were better options and that was the eye test not the stats!
If Klopp believes in him, I believe in him too.
I may not like everything I see, but there’s still good stuff there (probably not as visible as the disappointing parts, or because of them). I think it’s taking a while, but I think he’ll be great for us.
Totally bonkers now that Gakpo is safe for a bit the fire now is directed at Wirtz. We have won the game comfortably and Wirtz played his part in that he nearly got an assist if the Isak goal had counted can’t we just enjoy the win.
I think we should play a strong team in the Carabao vs Spurs…
But a few changes we should experiment with is significant game time for Rio, Nyoni and possibly at least a half hour of Koumas in place of Wirtz.
Yeah the fact even the best version of Wirtz isn’t really a “give me the ball and get out of my way” sort of creative player means he’s got an uphill battle to turn the perception of him around because he’s unlikely to be doing much of the stuff that the people who are not unreasonably dissatisfied with him will be satisfied with at this point. More than the money per se, I think this was the risk in buying a player like him because there are some very reasonably high expectations of what that buys you, meaning that even had he hit the ground running you could imagine a lot of grumbling from fans about “is this it?” imaging some combination of Phil’s shooting and Leo’s dribbling.
But I’m liking what I am seeing. He gets into pockets of space where it isnt easy to get the ball and do something productive with it. Sometimes productive means a simple looking ball that is easy to overlook but sets up a team mate in a good shooting position. And its easy to overlook because it looks like a 5 yard pass, but that is one of the characteristics of effective passers - its not the difficulty of the pass that makes them exception, it is creating easy passes with their movement, their vision and their control. He is always going to lose the ball a decent amount playing like that, and that is the other perception challenge he has to overcome.
EDIT: I dont mean in any way though to suggest this is just a perception problem and the people being grumpy just aren’t seeing it. There is both a real improvement he needs to make, but even if he makes it I worry about the “is this it?” element
Tbh Coutinho was magic at first when he was in that free role, creating and dribbling and splitting defences. Crazy ability and it worked very well with SAS.
Then we started playing him wide left and he got the odd screamer so he decided that shooting from range was what he should do all the time. Beginning of the end for him.
I’m 100% on board with Wirtz, and even I agree that there are levels that he needs to reach that he’s only glanced in moments for us so far. My thing with Wirtz is that we ignore the (not so) simple things that he makes look effortless because we haven’t seen enough of the sublime.
When we rest Isak, I wouldn’t mind seeing him as a false 9 next to pacey wingers like Barcola and Munoz. I think he has some of those Bobby Firmino qualities - vision, misdirection, incisive passing - that would set up the wingers beautifully.
On Coutinho, we sold him bought better players for what we needed and the rest is history, would we have achieved what we have without selling Phil? I doubt it.
But he still was a great player for us!
I think Iraola will harness the team to get a good tune out of Flo. Gakpo is showing new facets to his game. Isak just showed us that he is the player we thought we were buying.
I’m backing Iraola to sort it out and Flo will come good.
