its hard to really put yourself in that position until its happened, but, to be honest, i really think id put the blame on the keeper…id like to think i would at least…i dont think id even think register unless someone brought it up.
come to think of it…could you use the L Karius CL final as a point of reference? because i was probably more down on the management team than the ref or the keeper…
If you gave more than 3 or 4 seconds in a game to allow for advantage then brought it back you would be lynched as a ref.
The keeper had the ball under control and in his hands and therefore has an advantage, just because he makes a stupid decision to roll the ball to be able to play it from the floor doesn’t change that he had an advantage!
This decision is not in the same category as any of those you me tion though, and I’ve already agreed that we’ve unfortunately been on the end of some bad decisions.
Am I naive enough to believe that outside influences are a non-factor in refereeing decisions? No of course not. There was an example given that a few years ago Salah was shown multiple times in a pre-season refereeing training session as an example of “diving” whereas someone like Grealish wasn’t shown a single time.
Is it possible that a referee sees a chance to ruin Liverpool’s season or benefit their own club in a decision? Sure.
Could a referee be influenced by gambling operations etc? Sure.
But I’m still far from convinced any of the bad decisions have been anything but bad refereeing rather than malicious refereeing.
I’m increasingly in agreeance with @rab that Taylor actually did ok in the situation. The more I see it I think its likely that Areola thinks a free kick was awarded. So the referee plays advantage then turns around to see that Areola is confused and thought he has a free kick and is limping around wasting time. He stops play because of the confusion and walks over to tell him that if he’s really that hurt he needs to go down. I just can’t agree that this cost us points, we didn’t create this chance, we didn’t “earn” this chance, there was a miscommunication between the referee and the goalkeeper over whether a free kick or advantage had been given and the referee corrected that error immediately. While I’d be annoyed at Alisson of he made the same mistake I think we would all be angry at a referee that allowed the same goal against us.
Doku foul at Anfield is a terrible decision - on field referee misses it which is fine and VAR checks and clears it. I think, judging by the transcript, we again have bad communication caused by the on-field referee - Michael Oliver (who is known to be an egotist and doesn’t like his word being challenged) - repeatedly stating he sees it as Doku clearing the ball and Mac Allister running into him. Atwell, being spineless, agrees thats what happened.
Spurs is a bunch of fucking morons shouting over each other and not communicating properly. It led to the process of reviews being changed and the language allowed to be defined. Its shit and should never have happened.
Odegaard handball is a handball but again is a situation of bad communication. Referees are trained to allow slipping players to use a hand to support themselves and not award handballs. Referees are also trained to not award handballs when players are trying to reduce their natural shape (ie. Pull back their arm to avoid the ball). Odegaard ends up nearly slipping but maintaining his balance then moving his arm back towards his body which allows him to handle it. The referees are thinking about both the slip and the narrowing of the natural shape and come to the wrong conclusion that both if these actions are allowed by the rules.
I’ve no problem admitting we have been on the end of bad decisions, I just think the connecting factor is poorly communicated and subjective rules being judged in small time periods by people who are communicating badly with each other, and in some cases by people who detest that anything is allowed to challenge their judgement.
Its not like its just Liverpool on the end of weird or bad refereeing.
Man City vs Spurs: referee signals play on for Man City, who immediately play Grealish in 1v1. Referee then pulls it back to award the free kick.
Wolves vs Newcastle: penalty awarded on the field to Newcastle, VAR clearly sees the dive and that there was no contact by the Wolves player but awards penalty anyway.
Man City vs Fulham: Akanji, in an offside position, blocks off the Fulham goalkeeper to stop him making a save. Goal awarded.
Wolves v Fulham: Nearly 2 minutes after the challenge on the field, referees pulls it back to award a 91st minute, game winning, penalty to Fulham despite the replay showing no contact by the Wolves defender.
Liverpool vs Everton: Beto was clean througb, albeit with a long way to go, and Konate intentionally brings him down while on a yellow card. Referee and VAR decide not to send him off.
Arsenal vs Man City: Kovacic commits two red card offences in 3 minutes but only gets one yellow card before being subbed off.
Newcastle vs Arsenal: Newcastle win the game on a ball that went out of play and had a clear foul in the build up.
Man Utd vs Wolves: Onana flaps at a cross and wipes out Craig Dawson in the final minutes of the game but referee and VAR decide no penalty.
Nottingham Forest vs West Ham: Cornet stamps on Williams’ foot but VAR decides no penalty.
Brentford vs Liverpool: Robertson essentialling gets a piggy back ride on Toney and brings down the Brentford player but VAR decides no penalty.
Nottingham Forest vs Brentford: Wissa is in to score and is dragged by the goalkeeper with no penalty awarded.
Arsenal vs Spurs: Nketiah dives in high on Vicario but no red card is awarded.
Aston Villa vs Crystal Palace: Palace defender cleanly wins the ball twice with a sliding tackle before Watkins goes down, penalty awarded.
Anyway you get the idea, this is just a handful of bad decisions I found and there are plenty more. Every club claims referees have a problem with them and are targetting them.
In this and Liverpool’s case, if you are going to fuck them ocer you’d just rule out goals for some pushing and pulling on a corner or something you wouldn’t wait for a weird situation with a goalkeeper acting unexpectedly.
VAR and refereeing in general needs better and clearer leadership. There are probably better, modern, referees in the lower leagues who are being denied PL positions by established referees. All of it needs a thorough examination and Howard Webb ain’t the guy to do it. I just don’t believe this West Ham one fits in.
Fair enough.
We will differ on the intent of referees, and that’s fair enough.
It wasn’t even Taylor’s worst decision of the game. I’m not sure how Paqueta gets away with the challenge on Mac Allister, especially in the context of the Jones sending off. Consistency etc.
There was a big difference in how high up the leg the contact was with Jones. We can still argue it was a poor decision given the mitigating circumstances of Jones’s challenge but pointing to supposed inconsistency with challenges where there are meaningful differences between them really doesnt get us anywhere. Pacqueta definitely could have been sent off, but we’ve seen far more of those not get a red than otherwise.
I don’t think there is a lot of meaningful different between them. It’s an high studs up challenge that connects with a similar part of the leg, misses the ball, and could cause serious injury.
The only real difference between them is that Curtis got a touch on the ball first, which was the unfortunate reason he ended up connecting with the leg.
I think it’s inarguable that this season has been marred by questionable ‘interpretation’, where refs have given totally different decisions for essentially the same incident from week to week.
Woof, that bottom left one is one I havent seen before and looks way worse than the ones from the other angles.
In live play, sure 3-4 seconds is long enough to judge if there’s an advantage.
But, whilst the clock may be ticking as the keeper gets up and the ball is technically in-play, as it’s in his hands no one can do anything anyway. Once the ball is actually live again it’s a couple seconds before the ref blows to say the advantage hasn’t been gained.
I’m honestly staggered at the level of desperation here because for once common sense has been applied to correct an issue rather than compounding the mistake by letting it play out further. The initial part is poor refereeing, the second part is exactly what I’d want to see if it was us on the end of it instead of the opposition.
So
Paqueta should have been sent off?
You keep asking the question what if it was the other way round. If it was the other way round my anger would be at our goalkeeper.
For me this is not that far off the Diaz Spurs one. You see lots of bad decisions, refs interpreting things weirdly, and so. But this is Anthony Taylor making up rules as he goes along.
There is no foul given. There is no suggestion anyone has fouled anyone. Areola just lads a bit awkward, but makes no attempt to stop the game for treatment. Taylor gives the signal to play on, and runs back to the halfway line.
Areola then throws the ball out and starts messing with his socks, at which point Cody realises the ball is in play, and makes his run for it.
Taylor then blows his whistle to stop Cody and runs over to Areola, seems to tell him to go down (you can see him mouth the word ‘floor’) and calls on the physios.
It isn’t, by any stretch of the imagination, common sense refereeing. It’s a really bad mistake, and then to compound matters Taylor manufactures and incident - telling Areola to get treatment that he wasn’t asking for - to try and cover his arse.
This one looks like continuing into the summer
The same comments being made over and over again
I think I’ve said all I’m going to on this multiple times now but appreciate others may see it differently.
Can’t subscribe to the cheating claims though. The refs have proved time and again they’re a bit shit but also make entirely human mistakes. Think it’s worth separating those two classes of error and id certainly class this in the latter.
That was my point of view until we learnt some refs are paid by the owner of the league champions.
If they could separate (they can’t, they’re humans), then I would also considering separating errors by whatever classes we can come up with.
And I am astonished that by having full control of the ball, it being in his hand and still live because there hasn’t been a whistle to stop the game, that you can’t see that the advantage is over. His decision after that is irrelevant. For me you are clutching at staws with the advantage.
You were better discussing the ‘Spirit of the game’ idea, which, for me opens a whole can of worms and comes in the same bracket when a ref doesn’t send a player off in a big game to keep it a good contest.
I think it was me who said spirit of the game, by which I mean ignoring the wording of rules that produce poor results.
For me advantage isn’t part of it, there is a miscommunication between the GK and referee. The GK appears to believe a free kick was awarded, the referee had actually played advantage.
I suppose a non-GK situation that would be similar would be if a player was fouled in midfield, the referee played on and then - not realising there was an advantage - the midfielder puts his hand on the ball to stop it for a free kick. I think in these circumstances most referees would stop the game and award the free kick to the team that was given advantage.
Looking forward to the next match and the next controversy.
I also thought that Rab also said the same.
With regards to the keeper thinking it was a freekick, if it was it had ro be restarted from somewhere inside the goal area (6 yard box) and Iraola threw it down well outside that.
As I have mentioned with Rab, any supposed adavntage is over as the keeper has full control on his feet with the ball in his hands, it is that simple.
Me too, but they have happened way too mush this season compared to other seasons
a similar siuation would be ;
player fouled in midfield, player has ball at feet, player rolls ball forward as if to take a free kick. ( i think the hands on the ball bit forces the referee a bit more, all Areola did was release the ball)
i digress though, its all getting a bit entrenched.
the muddiest part is that the ref cant blow a whistle for advantage…Areola cant have thought it was a free kick because he cant of heard a whistle…typical time wasting arrogance from keepers with ten minutes to go…
which leads me to what i was getting agitated about just before the incident happened and that is, the blatant time wasting in football with ten minutes to go. when a keeper goes down ‘injured’ but clearly isnt, the ref should start dishing out yellows.
lets face it, none of this happens if Areola wasnt trying to buy time going down feigning injury…he bumped into a post FFS…
its not enough for the ref to add that time at the end of the game (they dont), it ruins the whole spectacle.
if a player is injured (apart from the keeper) they should be moved off the park and waved back on at the break in the next play (not referees discretion)…that would clean it up a bit.
and the keepers shouldnt be a protected species.
again, whether it was intentional by Taylor, or a miscaculation, or whether you believe common sense was aplied to save the situation, none of it happens if the keeper doesnt go down too easily just to waste time.
