I don’t deny there are people who do nasty things in the name of something but that does not necessarily render that something invalid. In the similar vein, not all Muslims are crazies just because some supposed ones decided to blow themselves up in the name of the Muslim faith. I certainly don’t oppress or commit violence against homosexuals. I condemn people who do these things in the name of religion or whatever beliefs or opinions they think gave them the right to.
Many people doing or displaying the same behavior do not make it natural. Over time, conditioning and influence can do that. But of course your belief that homosexuality is natural is because it has been displayed widely and over a long period of time in all natural species, I am not going to say you are wrong, you are entitled to that, it’s just that my ‘criteria’ for ‘natural’ happens to be linked to species reproduction.
Playing games doesn’t lead to species reproduction. Is it then not natural? That would be at odds with the behaviour of most mammals. Ever had a pet? They love games
It is natural. Breathing air is natural. Shitting is natural. Yes sure. I also believe homosexuality is not natural because a same sex relationship cannot reproduce as what nature determines is. But you can go on listing all the other natural things in this world, and it does not contradict that and I will not change my mind and I am not interested in debating to the point of trying to change another person’s mind because at some point, I will just be repeating myself again and again.
i suppose its just a selective way of defining natural in this instance
for the example above, the way im trying to interpret your point, is that playing football doesnt assist in hunting a wooly mammoth, so in the strict definition of ‘natural’ , playing sport is not natural for a human.
it may keep you healthy, but the best way to remain healthy would be to lift weights or run etc etc…it doesnt require competition, so competition in sport would be un natural
we can also suggest wearing of fashion items becomes unnatural at a point where you are no longer wearing clothes for warmth or to attract a mate.
if we can set the same parameters to alot of things, then i can understand your point…male on male or female on female intercourse has no natural enefit to the survival of the species, so it is an un natural act…
its seems a very narrow veiw of the word natural though, to be honest.
The word nature or natural covers such so many things so yes It is narrow for the point I believe in, about reproduction. Of course, relationships amongst humans whether between a man and woman or same sex is not purely for reproduction. But again, perhaps again repeating myself, I believe nature has always find a way for each individual species to reproduce itself naturally, this is just how nature is for humans and animals. Reproduction is not everything and all for a human relationship but for me to define whether a relationship, especially if a sexual one is involved, is natural, then I would use reproduction as a measure for myself. That does not mean I am saying you cannot be in a same sex relationship, but to me, its just not natural in that context.
I think I have stated above that certainly relationships are not just about reproduction but in your example, barring medical conditions, they could have kids but they can certainly choose not to. But in a same sex relationship, I don’t think its a choice they could make in terms of having kids as how nature sees it. Of course, they can still have kids by adoption or other artificial insemination methods.
I think we are hitting on different perspectives which we will never come to a conclusion. Because I have already stated why I believe it is not natural which you will never agree to. So I am just repeating myself to different people the same things over and over again.
But I don’t think you have satisfactorily explained why it is unnatural.
We have agreed that it occurs in nature, which is the basic prerequisite, and now it seems that the (non) reproductive element isn’t an issue, so why is it unnatural?
It’s important, because this line of argument is widespread, and, as I pointed out, inherently dangerous.
I will not go further because I have told you why I believe what I believe. Nothing more I can add to make my beliefs more scientific or whatever seem believable to you. I am not here to convince anyone else and have no need for anyone to validate my beliefs. I only focus on being a decent human being despite what I believe. If there are idiots who like to use whatever reasons to do nasty things, it is because they are nasties not because of the reasons they hide behind.
@gasband has his beliefs on the issue, and thats fair enough.
He is not espousing hatred, or judgement, just verbalising his position.
If any persons, organisations, whatever were to roll out the “not natural” viewpoint in the eyes of whatever God or Supreme Being as a reason to incite hatred, then it becomes dangerous.
The discussion/rulings/decisions surrounding participation in other than birth assigned gender will roll on for years.
I agree with @Mascot regarding current decision making.
In order to protect the competitive integrity of cis women in sport, the trans women really cannot participate. As @Dane pointed out, the onset of puberty in boys changes everything.
Its burying the head in the sand to suggest otherwise.
In the future we may/will see more competitive gender categories, where selection and participation will be graded regarding strenghts and real, not perceived advantages.
This is years away, and the current decisions, though not entirely satisfactory are the only correct decisions available.
Usually the games animals play are insticntual games to learn about hunting/escaping preditors or developing their social skills and status within their society.
I don’t think so either, but his explanation of why it’s ‘unnatural’ isn’t convincing to me and it’s important because it’s one of the two major arguments used against homosexuality.
Thanks for posting this extreme right wing fuckwits musings. Note the Knights Templar, those paragons of Christian Values has supported his moment in the spotlight.
