Don’t think it’s a question of viability when one of the candidates is Ursula von der Leyen.
If we’re talking about police misconduct, going ‘look at the teachers though’ is the very definition of whataboutery.
Where to fucking start with this.
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No, these crimes are not unique to the police. But there are two things which the police must bear. Firstly the police’s primary responsibility is to upload the law, which means when a police officer transgresses the law it’s seen as worse than other members of the public. Secondly, they are in a position of authority and a lot of trust is placed in them by the public, so a crime by a police officer is not only a crime, it’s a betrayal of trust as well.
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When there the extent of grooming and paedophilia came to light in the Catholic Church, and the a lesser extent the Church of England there was a long period of angst and soul searching, for largely the same reason as the police - they are seen as custodians of public trust and moral/ethical leaders.
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In the case of Sarah Everard the murderer could not have been a vet or lawyer or teacher, because a vet or a lawyer or a teacher can’t flash some ID at a young women late at night and persuade her to come alone with him in his car.
This wasn’t a crime he committed in a moment of madness while off duty - it was a premeditated attack in which he weaponised the trust and authority granted to him in his profession. That’s why it stings more.
Good for you. My experience of the police is quiet different. Get the police to a protest, and no matter how peaceful or legal your protest is, there will always be an element who are provocative, aggressive and clearly looking to crack heads. I’ve acted as a legal observer on rallies on many occasions and had police officers hassle me and abuse me. The number of times I’ve attempted to record the shoulder number of an officer only to find they have covered it. I’ll always remember the time I politely asked an officer for his shoulder number, which should have been on display. “fuck off you little cunt” was his reply.
You probably wouldn’t accept the police are institutionally racist, despite there being, what is it now, three separate inquiries saying this? But some of my friends are police officers, and they aren’t racist.
I’ll believe the evidence of multiple reports into the police and conclude that there are serious problems with the institution. One of them is that it attracts people who are a bit thick. Another is that it’s has a track record of closing ranks to protect itself from scrutiny (and no, you can’t say the same of the teaching profession).
Are you missing the point on purpose?
The point of the article and the general outcry is not at the number of upheld complaints. It’s that the number of upheld complaintS should be a lot higher, but the police do not and will not properly tackle transgressions towards women.
We went through this with the racism complaints towards the Met. You can’t say it isn’t an institutional problem, when an institutional problem would lead to low numbers.
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So ultimately your experiences with the police have been negative whilst mine have been positive. 2 simple cases of confirmation bias? You want more complaints upheld, I see those that are as proof that there’s not really a problem.
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That’s a comment that brings a lot to the discussion, well done.
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It is not often I agree with Mascot but on this issue I mostly do. His expansive post above pretty much says it all. My heart goes out to the victims family.
The only point I would like to make is that having witnessed first hand (not as a police officer) some of the truly horrific things that the police encounter, sometimes on a daily basis - they do deserve at least some compassion and respect. It is not a job I could do, I would fear for my sanity. There are things that I have been privy to that still keep me awake at night wondering what sort of fucked up world we live in. Things that undoubtedly would change anybody’s perception of the public. And of course they are the first people you call when life or property is endangered. There have been many heroic acts over the years by serving police officers.
One officer I knew years ago was so traumatised by a certain event he quit the force and received intensive counselling for years. You could see a pronounced change in him almost immediately and that progressed into a downward spiral. His marriage and life, literally fell apart. He now is a taxi driver in London. I think of him often and wonder how I would have reacted to those events. There is no amount of training that could prepare you for that.
Most importantly Mascot is right that this murdering rapist of an officer has betrayed the trust of the public, his colleagues and his family. His crime is far greater because of this. He preyed on the vulnerable - people he was supposed to protect.
And Mascot is on the money when he points out that most police officers are generally not the sharpest tools in the shed and that most of them do not know or understand the most basic legislation. Most of them do not even want to understand it.
The police force as an institution is broken and needs a radical roots and branch overhaul. Public trust in the force has been diminishing for decades. Such a reorganisation would need a lot of time and very careful consideration in order to eventually reestablish public trust . Now though is not the time for knee jerk reactions or ill considered legislation.
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I’m presuming you wouldn’t argue the police have a problem with institutional racism?
The police force has been shown to be institutionally racist by independent inquiries on a few occasions. Prior to that defenders of the police force would point to the low numbers of upheld complaints and convictions as proof they weren’t.
But with institutional racism, it isn’t just the subject of the complaint that are the problem. It’s the whole chain of command, the people investigating the complaints and those able to sanction officers.
Fair point on von der Leyen but how did she get that gig?
Was it because they wanted a female? Or perhaps it’s a case of who you know? Maybe some ill founded idea that she was ideal for the role?
Or are you saying it’s because she is white? Plus who else was in the frame for the role?
Well, her appointment wasn’t without controversy, particularly in that the EU Council ignored the spitzenkandidat system. She was the only candidate.
And no, I’m not saying that she was appointed because she was white but being white is certainly an advantage, particularly in the EU.
When the UK left the EU the number of BAME MEPs fell by 20%. Just 24 out of 705 MEPs were from an ethnic minority (3.4%).
That compares to 65 out of 650 in the Commons (10%).
ultimate question then is how and why is it an advantage to be white in the EU parliament?
What I’m getting at is that you’re suggesting that it’s a conscious decision. Is it?
I agree it doesn’t if you want to demonstrate a full ethnic spread but are there physical blocks in place preventing a wider spread of people in taking up these jobs.
I find the UK comparison interesting. The decision to appoint certain people clearly wasn’t taken ability as a parliamentary member. Whether it was to actually provide a wider spread but we should also note that many of these are simply “yes men”. I would ask what have they given up to get that role?
I wouldn’t argue either way as I simply don’t know. I have no lived experience of it nor analysis / understanding of any enquiry / findings. There are lots of things of which I’m not aware (it’s an old gag) as I have other things to do. For example I don’t know what percentage of UK bus drivers are Asian with a city by city breakdown but I’m sure there are figures and there’s been an investigation. I’m dimly aware of the campaign for more black managers in football bit couldn’t tell you much about it.
I could tell you a lot about 2 different companies conduct on a certain subject as it’s of great significance to me.
I’ve never had anything but a brilliant service from the police. I see they have a fucking horrible job at the moment and people chucking fireworks at them? Would you be a policeman? Pretty sure that the more shit that’s thrown, the more protests, the less respect and the more prosecutions, the less likely people will be to put on the body armour. That will be a fun day when we don’t have enough people wanting to be police.
Kill the bill? That’s really helpful.
[quote=“Klopptimist, post:705, topic:1336, full:true”]
I wouldn’t argue either way as I simply don’t know. I have no lived experience of it nor analysis / understanding of any enquiry / findings. There are lots of things of which I’m not aware (it’s an old gag) as I have other things to do. For example I don’t know what percentage of UK bus drivers are Asian with a city by city breakdown but I’m sure there are figures and there’s been an investigation. I’m dimly aware of the campaign for more black managers in football bit couldn’t tell you much about it.[/quote]
You don’t need to have a lived experience of police racism to think the police are institutionally racist, because there have been a number of inquiries now that have concluded that they are.
You claim to be led by facts, but you continually revert back to your own experience to back up you views. As a white person, you are not going to experience police racism. As a man you are not going to experience it’s misogeny. At some point people like you are going to have to step outside your own lives and make an effort to understand what it is like not being you.
If you make peaceful protest impossible, then you make violent confrontation inevitable.
Maybe on the day not enough people want to be police officers, we can finally do something properly radical and start investing that money in schemes to prevent crime in the first place. Having a long hard look at drug laws would be a really good start. As would recognising that the root cause of most crime is poverty.
This would be a much more sensible use of cash that more people who just want to crack heads. There are already arguments to defund the police, and they have a point.
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And your personal knowledge of the police and all their issues is purely down to the fact that you’re an expert on all branches of government and their issues? All business and it’s issues? You just read all the reports and investigations? Regaress of what or whom they’re about? Seemingly I should.
Or maybe down to your lived experience?
To be clear, I think we take an interest in things that affect our own lives. I’m interested in education (my job and my daughter), I like science and sport. I know a bit about these things and read interesting articles and pertinent papers. I don’t read those things associated with the police in the same way that I don’t take a particular interest in nursing or the civil service. Mrs K can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about education and then 100 times that you didn’t want to know but recently asked if Jupiter was the closest planet to the sun. Get my point? I can only make the assumption that your knowledge of the negatives of the police is based on your negative experiences with them.
Yes, I do talk about my experiences as I’m increasingly on the opinion that I’m the only one who seems to have them or remember them. Why cite a news story about a reporter having an experience in a bar in Washington (for example) when I’ve been there?
As for the phrase “people like you” well, people like me tend not to use that pejorative term.
Rape is worse than murder.
Actually, I would argue that it’s possibly the worst kind of crime. How do the victims reclaim their lives, if they do at all? How long and in how many ways the victims keep suffering after the incident? Can you possibly recover from an incident that shears the very soul?
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It is infinitely easier to recover from than murder.
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Not shit gifs that’s for sure.
This is what happens!!!
When you hibernate from TAN you miss nuggets like this!!!
#wtafisthiscuntonabout
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Speaking about unearned white privilege? There is plenty at your own door tbf.
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“at our own door”? Funny how criticism of a bureaucratic system that indirectly discriminates seems to be taken so personally by some in here. As if it’s seen as a charge against individuals personally.
Of course white privilege exists in the UK, particularly male, and its important that this legacy is made redundant. Rather than whataboutery, do more, be better. Accept what ought to change, don’t constantly defend outdated systems and ideology as if they are somehow intertwined with who you are.
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I was struggling to articulate that I didn’t think your reply made any sense, and like so often turned to Star Wars. The other option was calling you a scruffy looking nerf herder, but that might have been too much of a personal attack?