Back in the day there was a terrific exhibit in St Patrick’s cathedral about the Irish WWI experience. They gained their independence during the war, immediately withdrew from it but found many of the men elected to stay and continue to fight. St Patrick’s was the site thereafter of many demonstrations and protests, especially when receiving the bodies of men KIA who were treated as traitors.
My first reaction was it seemed an ugly reaction. My later, more considered reaction was that the war was an incredibly complex one for Ireland, for those at home and for those given the choice on whether to go home or continue a fight that was no longer theirs. There is no way around there being complex relationships with the poppy after that experience.
There is another part of this discussion that is relevant in that the stories we tell ourselves about why we fought the wars we did are nonsense, and are sustained even when intellectually we know better. In the US, through the early years of the war what was known of the Nazi treatment of Jews was not a rallying point to act to do something about it. There was lots of agreements about Jews in general and not insignificant supporters for Hitler and the Nazis. A confluence of factors driven by protecting economic interests in the Pacific led to us finding ourselves fighting Nazis in Europe, but this was absolutely not a case of going to war to fight fascism and not based on any sort of noble desire to protect Europe’s freedom. That is the reality of war…fought for economic reasons by men who have largely had no choice in the matter, while sold to the public on more noble grounds. Especially in today’s environment with growing fascist sentiment rising around the world it is important to remember who much of a foothold fascism had in the US at that time and what the real reasons we fought was. Of course, this is completely separate from the honour with which those who did the fighting should be held. It would be great if the poppy could be treated as just a solemn remembrance of those who lost their lives over fights they had no part in starting or no say in whether they were involved, but that isn’t how governments allow this to happen. I dont know if refusing to wear a poppy is the right way to raise this issue, but I understand why some people think it might be.
Funny how all that ‘spirit of Christmas’ and be nice to each other all of a sudden flies out the window for certain people when it’s a topic *they *feel strongly about.
The breadth of it might be a mistaken interpretation on my part, viewing the Irish reaction to the criticism that James McClean’s refusal to wear the poppy provokes every year. Between the media coverage and simple happenstance (I was seated at a pub in Dublin next to a loud discussion of the matter in 2019), it is quite possible that my limited sample was not representative.
Apologies I’m only catching up with this. I also should apologise I guess for being so horribly out the loop on this topic in general. I honestly really struggle with the subtleties of the whole debate at times.
Does the above statement also apply in a sporting context, where I think it’s far to say that genetics are becoming increasingly a factor in top level sport? Not always but most certainly sometimes.
I’ve no idea how you would approach a conversation like this (so I avoid it like the plague)
I’ll be looking to order that book when I return home (on hols at the moment). Very interesting to me that they mentioned the 36th Ulster Div. I visited some WW1 battlefields on a school trip in 1975. One that stands out in my mind was a site with two cemeteries no more than two hundred metres apart. Both were filled with Ulstermen killed on a single morning. About 350 in total. We started at the lower graveyard which was filled with the bodies of those killed as they left or soon after leaving the trench. We walked up a paved path which ran to the crest of a “hill”. In reality this hill was no more than a slope. I’ve seen park footy pitches with steeper slopes. To each side of the path were ploughed fields. Our teacher Mr Maddocks told us that this was a decent illustration of the ground that the soldiers had crossed on the day of the battle.
We were allowed to stray from the path and get some idea of the ‘going’ on the day. Reminded of course that the troops would have been weighed down with equipment, weapons and ammunition. Looking down at the ground you immediately saw that it was strewn with shrapnel balls, timing apparatus from HE shells, strands of barbed wire etc. When we reached the top and reached the second cemetery we were told the story of what had happened on the day. We’d all assumed that the dead in tge higher cemetery had perished taking the trench? It was not so. Although losses were incurred in the taking of the trench, the majority of deaths came from friendly shelling. The signal that the trench had been taken was not received by the Artillery battery who carried on shelling the trench for some time.
Such a needless loss of life.
Just to step into the poppy debate. I wear one. I wear it for my Dad who spent six years away from his family fightin in WW2. I wear it for my Brother killed in Cyprus eight months before I was born. I also wear it in remembrance of the Ulstermen and millions of others from all sides that went to their deaths, many of them having no idea what they were fighting for. “The war to end all wars”, some fecking hope. There’ll always be conflict. It’s human nature. Just look at this thread alone. As soon as someone states an opinion or makes a statement it seems that it inevitably escalates to an argument. Multiply that around the world and somewhere and somehow it’s bound to escalate to violence.
Sorry if I’m diverting this thread but between 2001-2003 I did three spells in Cyprus with my Reservist unit working on accommodation infrastructure for the UN who were there ‘peacekeeping’ between the Greek Cypriots and the Turks. I really couldn’t fathom what it was all about? Looking at the two protagonists I could see very little difference between the Males of each side. Both mainly dark haired with olive skin. Dressed similarly. In personality both very hospitable and friendly to me. It seemed to me that aside from the name of their own religion’s deity and how they worshipped it then they were quite similar. I’d happily spend time (and did) socially in the company of either or both of them.
There are many reasons why differences/disagreements escalate to wars. We as humans need to stop and listen to the other person’s opinion and if we don’t agree with it then not get too upset about it. Obviously I’m not talking about standing up to tyrants here.
Back to the poppy thing. My Dad was away from his family for quit a while. He wore a poppy but wouldn’t have made someone who chose not to, wear one. I can’t ever remember my Dad arguing with anyone.
I’ve privately apologized to Mascot for the tirade yesterday. I was out of line, and my sincerest apologies to the board in general. as a couple of posters have pointed out, lost my shit over nothing.
Fair enough. I seem to misremembered the details, but the larger point was that over the course of the war the sentiment of those home for those who were overseas fighting changed as a result of the independence cause resulting in very complex attitudes towards the war.
The Easter Rising in 1916 occurring as it did halfway through the First World War, and then the subsequent repression, is really the heart of that complexity.
Whatever people might think or not of James McClean,he and others refuse to wear it because it commemorates a military who were involved in conflict on this island.For McClean it’s very close to home.We have no problem with the poppy and from what i believe many Irish people wore it in it’s early inception until it became an overused symbol of british commemoration of those who raised arms in conflicts,including against Ireland.
Edit:Just to add regarding McClean.Our hostility is not to the poppy ,it is too the criticism ,abuse and racism he receives every year with nothing being done and very little reporting of it in the english media.
A lot of Irishmen fought during the war,but a huge amount of them would have been unionists and therefore fought for the empire.There would have been a significant number of Catholics(some Nationalists) who also fought but a lot of these fought under the promise of Home Rule which had been promised and then denied us for decades.We felt this was the time the english government would keep that promise,
There was also a huge amount of lads who went to war simply because they were paid to and their famalies were given the money when they were away.They had no other way,or no better way of making enough money to look after their loved one.When they returned they were ostrisised? because they took the kings money to fight for who was seen as our enemy but a hell of a lot of them came back and took up arms against the empire.
As has been said,in this country it was a very complex issue and one that 100 years later we are still working through.We know our history, and our shared history in Ireland,unfortunately others,in particular those we share that history with do not.
I think what Semmy overlooked to some degree is that the poppy is for some a different symbol in Canada than it is in the UK and Ireland. It is simple for us, we are remembering our own and not a great deal else.
For many people having family members who served in wartime is an honored and even a sacred thing, especially when those ancestors lost their lives, were injured or just horribly traumatized. WWI was a senseless meat grinder and no reason to get into that at the moment. My grandfather flew a Spad 13 in that war. Just getting those things off the ground and back was hazardous, before even mentioning someone might try to shoot you down. Fortunately for him, he came home without a scratch, though he lost some comrades.
I had another great uncle who was not so lucky. Was gassed in France and spent his life as an invalid.
So things like poppies and tombs of unknown soldiers and so forth. I get it. Not insinuating that this never happens, but if we’d from time to time put some flowers on the graves of our adversaries, too, we’d truly be getting somewhere.
I did that in Japan when I visited the Memorial Park in Hiroshima a few years back. Moving experience being in that park and going through that museum.
My granddad’s branch of the Royal Canadian Legion voted to allow a former Luftwaffe member join. He ended up being on the board for 20 years or so before he died, but it was controversial in 1962.
Watching a female on Homes under the hammer today, referring to the number of man hours it took to complete her renovation.
Shocking slipofthetongueism
