I hear you. I still have family of mine in my home town are refusing to get vaccinated because of some story they heard about how we’re all going to suffer the affects 5 years down the line and some line being preached in their church about how it changes the body and God won’t approve etc etc. One of my cousins has died and so has another not particularly close member. Of course, this hasn’t necessarily resulted in everyone getting a jab because somehow it still hasn’t registered. So ja, my patience with unsubstantiated vaccine nonsense has long since worn off.
I personally didn’t take umbrage at the Nuremberg stuff. It was the animal testing, not knowing vaccine stuff and something about being deep into political bullshit that raised my hackles and like I said, having family members perish because of believing misinformation like alot of the stuff this guy is peddling leaves me with very little patience for his utterings, golden nuggets in there or no.
The Nuremberg code applies not to practice of medicine but to medical research with a focus on informed consent. It’s principals, along with those from the related Declaration of Helsinki and the later Belmont Report, are the basis of whatever laws exist across the world regarding the conduct of human research, More often though the contents of these reports are not codified into law per se but are the basis of the regulations that explain how to be compliant with those laws.
There was nothing about the vaccine trials that violated any of the principals laid out in these various documents. Although I do grant you it was an important conversation to have at the time to ensure no violations occurred. But these principals are so baked into the process of designing and running trials, in ways that we dont even think about whether something comes from Nuremburg, Helsinki, or Belmont, we just know we have to follow what is referred to as Good Clinical Practice (GCP), that it was absolutely happening.
Furthermore, as they dont apply to the practice of medicine or the imposition of public health measures, they do not apply to any aspect of the roll out either. If we were running real world longitudinal experiments on the benefit of vaccine passports (make community x apply them and community Y go without and compare the differences) then there would be application, but that isnt what is happening.
1 Like
Yes, I also have little patience for misinformation or perpetuating unfounded fears, but discussions as to how various countries have responded to this pandemic, particularly vis-a-vis the Nuremberg Code, are definitely worth having.
This is another frustrating example of how crap the modern media is. The variant B.1.640.2 was first discovered in early November, and there are ~12 known cases. Yes, it has a lot of mutations. No, it doesn’t appear to have a hope of outcompeting Omicron, which has now taken B.1.640.2’s lunch money and run away laughing.
2 Likes
Fifteen year old son has covid, I’m sure Omicron, and is quarantining at home per CDC and school guidelines, for five days. After one or two days of feeling a bit miserable, sort of like a heavy cold, he feels a lot better today. With close contact I don’t have any symptoms, but obviously I am watching and waiting, and wearing a mask as needed.
I had a lengthy chat yesterday with an unvaccinated colleague. Notwithstanding some special circumstance, I am of the viewpoint that people who refuse to be vaccinated are not thinking of others, and generally prone to misinformation. So I entered the fray and had a good-natured conversation to try to find out the thinking.
Colleague is 26 years old, college educated, single. Doesn’t mean he’s a genius or anything, but he works in a professional environment, does a good job, owns a house, ties his own shoes, etc. I felt like Louis Theroux as I sort of interviewed him, but I was genuinely curious as to how he could hold the position he did.
He showed me data from VAERS. I wasn’t aware of this organization. It reports to the CDC and FDA and is a way for people to report adverse affects from being vaccinated.
I don’t know how legitimate the numbers I saw were, but there were almost 10,000 deaths reported in the US, due to the vaccine. Plus lots of other bad outcomes like miscarriages, myocarditis, anaphylaxis, and so on. (This would be in relation to over 500 million doses administered).
The CDC had a huge disclaimer on the site, basically saying it was unverified, and self-reported, but apparently the VAERS data is being used, at least by a portion of people here in America, to justify not getting the vaccine.
In other words, they argue that the risk of getting the vaccine is higher than not.
I asked my colleague what he was going to do if/when he got covid, likely when with Omicron (he hasn’t been infected with covid yet). And he said he thought he would be ok, as a healthy 26 year old, but if he got sick, then he had a list of doctors who he would go to to give early treatment of Hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin. He said they were both effective treatments if applied early.
He then sent me a couple podcasts from doctors he said were very credible, for example, Dr Robert Malone, who is the inventor of the original 9 mRNA patents filed in 1989 and has written approximately 100 peer reviewed publications.
I didn’t convince him of anything, but it seemed, at face value, that there was at least some consideration that he had given as to why he wasn’t planning on receiving the vaccine. It was a little bit of an eye opener for me that this sort of thinking and reference point is out there.
Ultimately the conversation made me consider to what degree we might be living in a world that is post-truth. It’s almost as if everyone has their own truth, and their own set of facts to support it.
Trust in public bodies seems at an all time low, such that (in America at least) 820,000 deaths and counting is not a hard fact that carries nearly as much weight as it should.
5 Likes
The Nuremberg Code goes further than simply touching on medical research. It is worth contemplating in relation to the extent civil liberties can be restricted by governments in response to public health crises. There are definitely interesting considerations to explore in that regard.
It sounds, dare I say it, typically French…
and yet here we are, arguing on the internet…
everyone questions the narrative. If you take off the tin hat for a second, each and every one of us has had to make the decision as to whether we trust people who have dedicated their lives to the field of medicine and science, to help lead us out of this pandemic. Doctors who have had to take the an oath upon entering their chosen field of expertise to help those in need. “Primum non nocere - first do no harm” is the unspoken motto of their profession.
approx 85% of my country has chosen to get vaccinated. I cannot speak to the mindset of those who have not, but we are a bit more trusting of our leaders to do their job and look after the interests of the people who elected them. Even if we don’t like them…
my two cents…
4 Likes
To what degree? As a 20 year+ professional in this space with graduate degrees in regulatory affairs you’d have to go a long way to convince me otherwise.
I think sometimes people conflate this specific document with the greater scope of the trials. International law regarding public policy was created as a part of the decisions of these trials, but this code was a very specific offshoot of that written to address one very specific aspect of those trials.
In other words, it covers the experimentation within the camps, not the creation of the camps themselves or the way they were run. This is an obvious but important distinction, because the expectation was that the precedent set by the trial’s rulings would eliminate the implementation of such government policy in the future, but medical experimentation would still be required. Therefore, the rulings stood on their own, but additional documents were required to address specific aspects within the camps that would be ongoing thereafter.
1 Like
The odds of a severe reaction to the vaccine vs the odds of a severe reaction to covid alone should sway most people. People will choose to believe whatever they want at the end of the day. I know plenty of very smart people who were against the vaccine for a bunch of different reasons here in the states.
2 Likes
Penis swelling to ten times original size…
Robert Malone is really not the originator of the mRNA vaccines, that is a self-awarded title, along with chief architect, etc… He was, to be fair, there at the beginning of the idea of mRNA vaccines, the idea may even be his. He is one author of two very important pieces of research, but is not a holder or identified inventor on any of the patents in what is a very, very complicated nexus of intellectual property. But there are a host of reasons why that work was done in the late 80’s, and the first vaccines are only in use now.
5 Likes
@Arminius - thank you. I read the McGill article and will read the piece in The Atlantic later.
1 Like
you too, hey? welcome to Canada, eh!
Public safety databases, like VAERS for vaccines, are the basis on ongoing safety monitoring by the regulatory authorities for marketed products. These are used to identify relationships between medical issues and a product that we weren’t previously aware of (i.e. occur at a lower rate than can be identified during a clinical trial) and so the assumption is the vast majority of reported events are incidental and not in any way related to the product.
2 Likes
But the science is proven that being vaxed, greatly reduces both the chance of getting it, and more improtantly the risk of spreading it.
If you still decide to be unvaxed, then I say you accept the consequences, which if you spread it to someone who then dies from it, you should be held responsible for their death
1 Like
First of all, no-one is saying ‘the unvaccinated should die’. That’s a strawman attack.
I don’t know what’s in the vaccine, that’s true. I also don’t know what’s in the toothpaste I brush my teeth with or half the food I eat. But I could find out if I want to.
Fortunately there is a regulatory and medical framework that means I don’t have to spend 24 hours a days painstakingly researching ingredients before knowing something is safe to ingest.
You implied that the vaccine hadn’t been tested on animals which was, frankly, bollocks.
You talked about patient consent, and that also turned out to be nonsense.
You said the vaccine programme broke every principle of the Nuremburg code, which is clearly not true.
You said we don’t know what is in on the vaccine, which we in fact do.
At this stage I don’t even know what it is that you want to talk about. You brought up the Nuremburg code, so we can have a debate about that if you want? My understanding of it is that it applies to medical experimentation with the specific context of forced of involuntary experimentation on humans. I’m not sure why you think a roll out of a tested and approved vaccine is comparable. To be perfectly honest I think conspiracy theorists using the Nuremburg Code to cast doubt on the Covid Vaccine is actually quite offensive, given the horrific background to the creation of the Code.
If what you are going to fall back on is something akin to ‘I saw a video on Facebook’ then I really think there isn’t much point.
3 Likes
A further 334 deaths reported in the UK yesterday isn’t a good sign, even accounting for the Xmas/NY lag in capturing the data.
Nuremburg is raised because it has Nazi connotations they want to apply to public health measures instituted to make these people less of a danger to society. There is no basis for it other than it working well to hit that emotional response button.
4 Likes
The CDC just kicked themselves in the dick again by responding to criticism of their last guidelines with modified guidance that now includes tests. They now say it isnt a requirements, but that if you choose to test after 5 days and it’s positive then you should extend your quarantine to the full 10 days.
They have now essentially told people that a test is a pain in the arse and will make your life harder if you try to use one.