The Owners - FSG

Yep, this is, to me, The Problem.

Let’s face it. If you are concerned about greed and money, you have had multiple opportunities to express that over the last thirty years. Perhaps when the PL was created back in 1992 - although not as a closed shop, certainly with enough of a gulf between the elite and the rest of the football pyramid that it would forever distort the game and require clubs to contort themselves into difficulties trying to get in, or stay in, that elite. Perhaps as player salaries soared past 100k, 200k, 300k, creating the conditions where the owners of football clubs would inevitably feel forced to secure revenue streams to manage these liabilities. Perhaps as the desire to expand the football market into the Middle East was deemed more important than the deaths of 3600 migrant workers.

I’m not interested in listening to Neville or Carragher bleating about greed from a Sky TV set. Millionaires complaining about billionaires ruining the game. It’s rank hypocrisy.

Yes, greed is awful. But this project isn’t the invention of greed in football, it’s the logical end point that started with the invention of premier league football and the realisation that, thanks to the mugs we are, this game is a potential cash cow that can be milked indefinitely. That attracted the millionaires, and in turn that eventually attracted by billionaires, and then the sovereign wealth funds got involved, and that left even billionaires wondering if they had enough money to compete. And all the time the games governing bodies did nothing to restrain this. On the contrary, they welcomed it gladly.

So fuck the moralising and handwringing. That horse has long bolted, and the concept of greed in football is a genie that no-one is getting back in the bottle now.

My objections to this are similar to a lot of my objections to capitalism in general. In seeking to monetise and extract maximum value from a product, you will inevitably kill the thing you are selling.

Change in itself is not a bad thing. Change is good. It keeps things fresh and exciting. But the question that always needs to be asked is ‘is this change going to make things better’.

The following statements about sport (maybe even life) are I think objectively true. These things we hold to be self-evident etc

  • success is only worth something if there is a risk of failure.

  • special occasions are only special because they are rare

  • Once something unique is destroyed you can’t get it back.

That’s why I think ultimately this project kills the game. It takes the special and turns it into the mundane and humdrum. It reduces Liverpool v Real Madrid or Manchester United v Barcelona and reduces them to the level of Liverpool v Burnley or Barcelona v Getafe.

The 4-0 victory over Barca wasn’t a once in a lifetime event because it was Liverpool v Barca. It was the context, the peril, the romance and the stakes. You can’t bottle it and release it every season. It mattered because we might not get to play in that game again for several years. Would the players have found the reserves of strength and resolve to do that if we knew we’d play them again next year?

We need to be careful looking at the closed shop idea, because in a lot of ways football has been a closed shop for a very long time. The distorting influence of Champions league money has created soft monopolies in that competition anyway. In some leagues more than others. The UEFA proposal also created a closed shop, and we can’t get away from the reality that any reform to the CL is going to involved some kind of guarantee to the top 15 clubs - who are all carrying the kind of wages and costs that make bring in the CL an existential necessity - that their participation, and therefore income, will be protected.

But of course that just makes competition meaningless, takes away the drama and with it, over time, the audience and the money drifts away.

And that’s what really concerns me about this. Once the ‘legacy fans’ have lost interest - and they will lose interest - then everything that the billionaires are trying to sell goes as well. Whether that’s the passion and drama of a CL semi final or the atmosphere of Anfield. It just makes football a bit rubbish. A non-event, bolstered with plastic hype, over-excited commentators, and CGI explosions on the title cards to create to illusion of importance and drama.

Everything good about football is already clinging on by it’s fingertips. Passionate fans are being priced out in favour of corporate crowds. The chances for a smaller club to rise through the pyramid and compete with the big boys is already practically non-existent. Leagues are already mostly settled by who has the most money. This could be the final stamp on the fingers.

One last point, as I’ve gone on for too long. This, one way or another, is the end of FSG. I think that’s a shame as they have mostly been good owners. But ultimately they either turn football into what they want it to be and kill it, or they realise that they can’t turn football into what they want it to be, so lose interest. I can’t see a third pathway for them at this point.

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Agree completely till the last paragraph. If this goes ahead, FSG would be insane to not be involved. They might be utterly against this idea but realise that they’re damned if they do or don’t but long term financial security is absolutely their first responsibility. Ask Leeds, Rangers, Bolton etc. I remember the first £1m player, the first to earn £100k a week, petrol going past a pound a litre etc. All these things could never be beaten, would never become more expensive, utterly unsustainable.

Pricing local fans out of the game, turning Anfield into a purely tourist resort, selling the football (only the best matches against the best teams) worldwide and sitting on a fat pile of cash is, sadly, inevitable. That journey started a long time ago though, this is just a small hop.

Just occurred to me, been to the Cavern Club recently? Reasonable musicians replicating the greats of yesteryear to Japanese tourists. All the life and soul of, well, football in the future.

What to do? As @Kopstar said, let a few of the big teams crash and burn and re-set the player wages. Would only work for a few years though. We can blame FSG for being complicate in this but not for engineering it.

Would you turn down the offer (if you were FSG) if you knew this was 100% going ahead?

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The problem i have is the CL might have been turning more into a closed shop but a lot of it was still in on merit and it was still open to the whole of Europe, those clubs that qualified from say Russia and Turkey, Hungary and Austria would still qualify, this super league(and Perez has made it blatantly obvious) is that they are not interested in the variety of teams only in these big games that they claim will bank roll this.

The 5 teams thing as he held up as an open opportunity is as someone said like some kind of token, those teams won’t be able to compete and probably won’t return the season after, they are sop and apparently from what I’ve read the money they get won’t even match the CL.

I don’t understand the nothing to win point. It will be the absolutely pinnacle of world football, even more so than the current CL if the doom mongers predictions come true about this further concentrating the talent in a closed system. The problem is not that winning it wont count for anything, it’s that so much of that a large % of the games will be seen as run of the mill relatively meaningless games, concentrating the exactment in a small period at the end of the season. But that is the same with the so called Swiss Model being proposed by UEFA, a huge point that is so often getting overlooked in this outrage.

Kopstar hits on what makes me most uncomfortable, and that is that wrestling control from a corrupt self-serving organization like UEFA might not actually be for the best. Even in the case where these 12 founding members are committed to maintaining the strength of the European game (and they’re not, only in as far is doing so is good for their bottom line), there is no guarantee that the next generation of owners will be. Putting all the control in their hands takes us one step closer to the European Super League being played in China and Qatar.

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This is an interesting article relating to the value of American NFL teams compared to European Football teams. Maybe this is one of the reasons the American owners in the PL have had their heads turned?

"From a financial perspective, the term “king of sports” should go for American football, especially after checking that 10 of the highest valued sports clubs, according to Forbes, go to four NFL franchises including the Dallas Cowboys, spearheading the list with $4,200 M. At this point, it should be noted that the three major soccer clubs, Manchester United, FC Barcelona and Real Madrid, have a total revenue of arounds $3,600 M, but in terms of leagues, none of them gets even close to the figures handled by the 32 owners of the 32 leading franchises holding the NFL.

In an overview of the main European football teams, we could speculate with a great private league of clubs in Europe that could equal this massive sports goose laying the golden eggs, but reality tells that the current Champions League organized by the UEFA generates hardly half of the NFL revenue. In fact, ESPN journalist, Gabriele Marcotti, speculated in an excellent article with this hypothetical possibility and enumerates a whole list of reasons why, with the current Champion League format, European football can never dream of equaling the figures generated by American football"

  • I have edited some references in the quotation for ease of reading.
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Gotta say, the number of fuck ups the Owners make that show they’ve got no feeling for the views of fans is incredible. I’ll let them off for the need to publicly apologise for not signing Clint Dempsey but the loose lips regarding the van Dijk signing was embarrassing.

However, the criticism around the Dunkin’ Donuts use of the Hillsborough flames, abysmal communications around ticket-pricing, and the cackhanded way plans to furlough staff leaked out were all entirely avoidable. And now this.

Are they incredibly inept or do they just not care?

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Question to American’s do clubs in the NFL carry a local support? I know the Yankees are effectively a brand and if you mentioned Geritt Cole to someone wearing a Yankee cap they would wonder if you are just weird, I can’t really tell from the rest of Baseball but without the amount of games I assume local following is quite high.

NFL however is a different beast, considering it’s one game a week and now you are getting games over here, Baseball plays 160 games a season so moving two to London isn’t a big thing but NFL must be.

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I think I just said on another post they aren’t football people and it shows. In fact beyond Perez I don’t think any of the 12 are particularly football driven, perhaps the Barca president.

However with what you’ve said you’d think they could run a business better even being allowed to have your photo taken while showing Martinez around Florida is pretty dumb.

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I’m repeating what I’ve just said in another thread, but FSG are baffling.

Most of the time they tick along, quietly making LFC into the best football team in the world.

Then they drop a bollock, and by god do they.

It’s like the FSG ownership ride is

  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • OH FUCK EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE!!!
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • SHIT. ITS ALL ON FUCKING FIRE AGAIN!!!
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • brilliant
  • OH FOR FUCKS SAKE WHY IS IT ON FIRE AGAIN!?!?!?
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Have to say I am torn on this matter.
On the pro side
If your not in you cant win
if it goes ahead far better to be in at the start rather than possibly being left behind
UFEA couldnt orgainse a p up in a brewery look at the european nations cup and the mess up there with all the different venues in different countries./ the sort of a pre tournement etc
the failure to deal with racism in certian grounds
The corruption all over the place, bungs etc
The playing against the super clubs regularly with the majority trying to play football as opposed to 11 men behind the ball
sky/bt sports up in arms because they may miss out on the tv rights
against:
The lack of ability for clubs to qualify for it say leicester
The clubs left out with serious history- ajax, porto etc
Making it extremly hard to see live matches particularly for non season ticket holders ( ofton easier to get a ticket for a match against the smaller clubs away rather than at anfield.
How the “founders” were picked

I think if they were doing this they should have actually had a qualifing criteria based on actual football sucess rather than potential fan base etc.
IMHO the basis for “entering” initally should have been that you should have

  1. be in the top 6 of top division in your country
    2.won european cup / champions league or have been at least in a semifinal
  2. have won one of the major leagues within the last 10 years)
  3. have a stadium capacity of at least 40000
    have to have at least 3 of the 4 to qualify
    That way ajax,Benifica,Porto and yes celtic ( huge fan base and potential) But no Arsenal
    Obviously want Munich, dortmund psg in it
    Yes the ajax etc would be the kicking boys initially but would grow quite quickly with decent money coming to them.
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Interesting thread on this, think they have grossly under estimated the chances of this failing and risks involved in all of this -

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@Colossal_centre_back

Reading that only underpins my belief that there is an agreed global aspect to this, with selected matches in America and Asia to bring those massive markets into play.

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Yep, the Liverpool Globetrotters coming to town.

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Must admit I had put most of FSGs mistakes down to naivety or dopey marketing, and was relatively positive them given the success on the field. The wake up call was their decision to furlough staff. There was no naivety there, they were shamed into backing down. Presumably they were plotting this ESL billionaires paradise at the same time.

No matter what happens FSG have now turned those who were positive, or even ambivalent, against them

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I had absolutely no problem with Liverpool or any other club furloughing staff. I found the whole outrage fucking embarrassing to be honest.

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As a long-standing follower of the NFL, one of the things that makes it so enjoyable is that the season is only 16 games, with a maximum of four post-season games if you reach the Super Bowl.

Of course, the NFL owners have decided to add one more regular season game from 2021, to much consternation, and that is purely a moneymaking move, but the short NFL season makes each game feel more special.

As somebody (sorry, can’t remember who!) said earlier in this thread, you wouldn’t have Christmas every day.

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Maybe they just don’t consider it important to do anything but what they consider correct. No communication, dreadful decisions, ignore the fans. Ultimately they can do as they please. Fans can come and go but owners are for life?

This has been a massive fck up from FSG.

The timing of it is diabolical. They left the manager and players completely hung out to dry yesterday. Boss and the players didn’t need to take the backlash or insults of leeds by wearing those freakin tshirts and also asking us to wear.Our team wasn’t playing against 11…it was like playing against the world.

Klopp’s and this club’s philiosophy has been earning your credits by hardwork and ethos .This goes against everything. Don’t think alot have even read the full statement … it’s an absolute joke . If this was not enough… you put up a message of a Man Utd chairman message on your website on how great ESL will be. What the fck is this…I am sorry but it leaves no room for people to still defend FSG.

If Klopp walks after this utter shite…we can defend FSG as much as we like…

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You have to ask? I can absolutely believe that some owners consider that they can piss the fans off because they’ll just get more. A huge waiting list for season tickets for example. Proof that they have no concept of what the club is about beyond its ability to create cash.

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I’m not sure anybody’s defending their handling of this. If handling is the right word, utter mismanagement and a culpable lack of communication would be more apt. Fucking up is bad enough but they’re epic at actually doing it that annoys so much.

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