The Unreliable Rumours Discussion Thread (Part 1)

I don’t know if anyone other than Liverpool fans would argue Gomez is England’s best defender, even before his injury he was starting to have a lot of poor games. Klopp had to take him off twice because of his performance, even Lovren didn’t suffer that indignity.

There are a number of areas Gomez needs to improve upon, particularly his decision making on when to step up or when to drop off. He gets it wrong far, far too often. He might be the quickest centre back we have but he’s almost the least suitable to the extremely high line. He’s not particularly impressive in the air either.

That said, we obviously wouldn’t sell him instead of Phillips based on footballing merit. He’s comfortably a more talented player and still has potential, but he’s not putting in the performances now that he was at the end of '18. We’ve changed system, he’s had injuries, who knows if he’ll have return to that level. Worth keeping him around to see, though.

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The way Konate is playing now is reminiscent of Gomez at his almost best, with his aerial dominance being the notable difference. Thing with Gomez is all these injuries, you really can’t tell whether he’ll ever be at his very best again. Some people even said that his last big injury was worse than any ACL injury. Ironically, he doesn’t look like he’s lost pace off the mark but his positioning is suspect.

Still, if (and it’s a big "if) he can remain consistently fit, I think Klopp will get him back to his best. He’s fourth choice at the moment on merit but I think we’ve heard criticisms of him before and whenever he was able to string together a run of games, he was excellent. I remember people saying on TIA at some point (in 2019, I think) that his form was arguably better than Van Dijk’s because opponents targeted Gomez as they couldn’t deal with Van Dijk and he was thus forced to up his game.

Not sure if it’s that ironic, positioning is probably something you can work on much better in actual games rather than just training sessions.

Yeah, he was never better than Van Dijk though. Some are always going to be contrarian or a bit too clever, but Van Dijk in 18/19 was the best season I’ve seen from a Liverpool centre back, and by a considerable distance too. Gomez was excellent and had the odd game where he was better (Napoli away) but that’s it.

I don’t know if he’ll get back to that level, but he’s definitely worth sticking with. As it stands though he looks like he’s 4th in line and it’ll take injuries for him to get a run of games. He needs showings much better than last night or Milan for Klopp to pick him again ahead of Konate or Matip.

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I dont think it was a contrarian point, but just a reflection of which of the two of them had the defending to do. As Nik points out, in many of those games there appeared to be a conscious effort to direct their attacks to where Virgil wasn’t, which then meant Joe had a lot more work to do. In those games where he skated by unscathed it is not unreasonable to say he had the more impressive performance simply because he was asked to do more and did it all impeccably. there was one game in particular against West Ham because of how much trouble Antonio’s physical presence had given us in the recent past and Joe just completely rag dolled him, leaving him in a heap on the floor multiple times

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These arguments are massively overstated as well. Yeah, players try to stay away from Van Dijk, but more often than not it isn’t possible.

Gomez won 24 headers in the league in 16 appearances. Van Dijk won 181 in 38.

Gomez won 54 duels. Van Dijk won 244.

Gomez blocked 1 shot. Van Dijk 8.

Gomez 0 goals or assists. Van Dijk 4 goals 2 assists.

It’s one of those theoretical arguments that doesn’t hold up to any real scrutiny. Van Dijk was always more involved than Gomez.

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What doesn’t hold up to scrutiny is the presentation of aggregate statistics to counter comments made about specific games.

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So there’s a massive discrepency in the numbers towards Van Dijk but Gomez had “many” games in which he had “a lot more work to do”? I don’t think so. Having actually watched the games, I know it isn’t true.

My enduring memory of the West Ham game you mention is Van Dijk flattening Antonio right in front of me, not Gomez. Which makes sense given that Antonio was playing on the right, not in the centre.

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I love Jota. He’s a brilliant goal scorer and performed way beyond expectations since he arrived. Was just pointing out that he’s more selfish than Mane and Mo, both of whom get more stick for this (mainly from outside our fan base)

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Just to clarify, we are talking central defender.

Then at that point, I hear you, not many fans would have Gomez down as England’s best central defender.

To my mind, I go through the list of alternates, and it is very small indeed. I consider the dopes Southgate picks in central defense and I don’t see any of them as clearly better than Joe, so at that point I back our man.

Still, it’s just an opinion, and I would agree with you that the wider footballing public might not see it that way.

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Who’s better?
Maguire :x:
Stones :x:
Mings :x: :x:
Coady :x:

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Stones last year was better than Gomez has been for a while.

Konsa too.

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Tomori as well.

But Gomez has a much higher level than any other English CB. Question is, will he ever reach it again?

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If he can get playing time, I think he can. He’s always bounced back

I think that’s the point though. ‘For a while’ includes the year Gomez had out with his third serious knee injury and the spell where he can’t find game time because we can’t afford to carry him while he finds form and match sharpness.

If John Stones isn’t better than a lad who is out for a year and then struggling to get a kick, then England are in heaps of trouble defensively.

When Gomez has been a regular - and I mean 18/19, 19/20, and the start of 20/21 - he was comfortably England’s best Centre Half. I’m one of those who thoughts he’d have games in that spell where he played better than Van Dijk. Doesn’t mean I’d have him over Van Dijk or anything like that. It’s just form and football - and of course Van Dijk is so good he makes everyone who partners him a better player.

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Gomez was really, really poor at the start of 20/21. He’s barely had a good game since we won the league.

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Yeah I think we sometimes overrated our own Gomez (and not only him). Doesn’t take much for lines like “best in the league/best English/best in Europe” to appear with certain players (with certain players it’s true). Heard that even about Sakho in the past, let alone Gomez. But happens at every club I guess.

He had some brilliant spells for us, namely the first part of 18/19, I remember I had specifically him and Gini as our two best players, the way they started that season. Couldn’t decide between the two who played better (possibly Gini as it’s a more all action role).

I’d say we never really spoke enough about his weaknesses, probably because he was young(er), talented, fast, could play, English, etc. An Englishman surnamed Gomez, that’s the full package! Even when his form was ‘alright’. Some things were always evident and Klopp spoke about them here and there.

We’ll see what happens, I wouldn’t write him off yet. For me, since Virg is in, I always had Matip as our 2nd best CB on paper in terms of quality when they’re fit and in normal form, but it’s not like there was a huge hole between Matip and the rest. They all had their good spells and bad spells. Sometimes form, more often injuries, sometimes both. F*ck, even Lovren had his best period early alongside Virg on that route to Kiev.

When you look at our defence now (players we count on), it’s a “perfect” situation; 8 players for 4 positions, all tied under contracts.

Doesn’t mean we might not still have an eye on the market (and the Academy!) for possible upgrades and changes, but it could happen that someone like Gomez and Williams (at some point maybe even Tsimi) want to go out and play more games. Will depend on our evaluation and offers I guess.

I’m calm about the situation, I don’t think Matip will necessarily be there for 50 games a season for the next eternity. Konate is showing some good stuff, some not so good stuff, very much a work in progress, I’d say so far so good, considering everything. But I think we bought him because he has some raw qualities and we believe we can improve him (also work on that prevention from injuries!) with time. Question about his ceiling, we’ll find that out at some point.

And if it turns out that Gomez goes somewhere else and we find the deal to be good enough to move on, that’s also a possibility.

When you have one of the best sides in Europe, things like this happen, so it’s no drama for me, as long our next moves are on point more often than not to keep us at that level.

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Well, that’s not my recollection.

We conceded loads in the few league games he played (a rate of more than 2 goals per game with him on the pitch), no clean sheets, he had to be subbed off against Villa because he was all over the place. Everton and Leeds were poor performances. That’s how it was. He did have a couple of good games in the CL.

After winning the league he had to be subbed off at half time against City because he was having a shocker, and at home to Chelsea not long after he had one of his worst games for the club.

There were a lot of really bad performances packed into a run of not so many games.

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Van Dijk was also in all of those games - until Prickford tried to amuptate his leg, but no one seems to call him out for not playing well.

And it wasn’t just Gomez, the whole team played piss poor at the start of last season

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