And Johnson wasn’t?
1 Like
Ultimately both Johnson and Corbyn were terrible leaders for very different reasons. One lacks all principles, the other dogmatic to the extent blinded to reality.
Starmer has actually done a decent job. He has been pragmatic and been pretty boring. That’s actually what the UK needs. It disarms the smears. This week the attacks on him were he supported Corbyn as leader (criticism by association)…. Which is pretty weak given the only thing of note when the general public think of him is removing the Corbyn influence from the Labour party.
Other than that it’s trying to insulate the London bubble, hindsight and he’s a lawyer. There is only so much mileage you can get from that. The Jimmy Saville thing has blown up in their faces.
Ultimately with someone like Corbyn it was too easy for a Labour issue (or Corbyn himself) to be the dead cat to distract or get people angry about.
When you remove that, the Tory party started to self cannibalise (operation save big dog)
2 Likes
I always think of it as Corbyn having the right instincts on policy direction (mostly), while someone like Starmer has the brains/instinct to push it through better. I’d like to think that much like Olaf Scholz, the relatively conservative nature of theirs is more of trying to push the right policies through without losing support…
To an extent I think thats true.
It’s picking and choosing your battles and it’s about compromise.
Antisemitism and Brexit are two important examples. One where a marker needed to be made. The other where he needed to swallow his pride irrespective of personal views.
Optics and perceptions matter. Starmer gets that sometimes they matter more than reality and belief’s.
1 Like
I think what Corbyn got though is that in order to build a movement, you need to seem genuine, or at least to keep the message as simple as possible.
That’s wasn’t the point though. Odin wasn’t talking about appeal. He was talking about what he’d do. He isn’t a popular figure amongst working class voters, which is ironic as there hasn’t been a party leader since Attlee who would’ve done more to improve their lot.
I don’t really understand why this is, but I suspect it has a lot to do with working class voters tendency/vulnerability to be told what to think be people who wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire.
Edit: see you already had this conversation, and I’m late to the party as usual…
Can you back that up with anything concrete? Anything that points to me than a gut feeling.
And god help me if that involves the words ‘Jimmy’ or ‘Savile’. 
Personally, I think this shows how ludicrously divisive politics has become. Especially on the left. Someone left of centre, certainly more to the left than Blair, is slagged off as a Tory. Someone who is essentially a Social Democrat (Corbyn) is dismissed as a Communist. It’s madness.
5 Likes
That’s true, but also dangerous. He distanced himself from politicians and by default took up a morale high ground. The party began to look unprofessional and had further to fall on moral issues.
I will always remember watching a PMQs. It was a pivotal moment I knew Corbyn would never be PM. In one of the most important speeches of his life, in the background two labour front benches were fiddling on their mobiles (not paying attention). None of them in shot wearing a suit like they normally would (some looked like they were popping down to ASDA).
A lack of professionalism. It was important for the party to appear genuine. Regular people. But it swung too far. The contrast with the Tories was stark.
Ultimately when it comes to the economy and making the big calls the public are more likely to trust you, if you don’t look like a substitute teacher.
A strong morale compass and coming across genuine does not beat that.
Tbh that applies to the right as well , anyone who wants to stop illegal immigration is the son of Hitler according to the left …no common ground to be made as almost all become entrenched that they are right …country is left off worse than before because we have a system that is built to stifle debate , and play one side against the others whilst those who cause the arguments with their decisions really don’t give two shits as long as they can carry on grifting the public
I think it it is a little different in this regard. I’m talking about the left attacking the left because it’s either not left enough or far too left. You’re talking about the left attacking the right for their views on immigration.
And the immigration issue is a bit different because it isn’t an argument about policy. It’s about the nature of reality. The vast majority of what people believe about asylum and immigration is just categorically untrue. It’s been stoked to distract from failures of domestic policy makers and it appeals to a base racist instinct in humans.
3 Likes
Ironically, the very rags pushing that lie were also very fond of a certain German leader from the 1930s and 1940s…
2 Likes
What I find ironic is that the people generally most concerned about about immigration are also likely to be very opposed to any action on climate change. They haven’t quite understood that what is about to be unleashed is going to make the current immigration look like a picnic.
3 Likes
I’d only have to go back up this thread, wouldn’t I?
Big part of the issue here is the refugees /asylum seekers being brandished as some kind of scum coming here to steal jobs, tie up the NHS etc. I think it’s disgusting that people running for their lives have been weaponised like this.
Now we’re sending them to Rwanda while under Patel’s watch processing of asylum seekers is taking far longer than it ever has. Absolutely.
This is why you need me as an MP at PMQs. I’d have lodged an innocuous question then stood up and said “Boris has lied to this house, I request that you all speak the truth and start all subsequent questions with the same statement of fact”
Whipped to fcuk but the media would call me a darling.
We’ll need a little more than your ironic feeling to put flesh on the bones of this statement. For example (me and my examples) somebody I know is a rampant BREXIT supporter who wants all immigration stopped and chains herself to trees and lies in roads. I stress, not because she drinks……
So you’re Ian Blackford in disguise then?
1 Like
Is that the defence they put to the Met?
Are you doing the ‘I know a person…’ thing again?
I don’t think that’s what it shows. I’d hardly call Flobs representative of…well, anyone. He’s one of a kind.
1 Like