Some midfielders do the same jobs they did. And those players almost certainly have lower pass completion and whatever other stats than Jones. As would most world class players from the last decade or two in midfield im sure.
You like straw manning dont you. I said he´s a good player.
Just that calling him insanely good on the ball is ridiculous OTT. If he didn´t play for Liverpool you´d never mention him and you´d be saying the same about him as Bouaddi.
Of course I would know who he was and would talk about him. He was the best U18 player in the country then he was at the best player in the U21s league. Then he was part of, as a squad player, one of the best teams to ever play in the Premier League for multiple seasons.
By the way Vitinha, who you highlighted as a player who is actually good on the ball, has basically an identical graph as Jones but somehow I think you won’t write off his “pass completion and whatever” in the same way as you did for Jones.
Oh I forgot we’ve been linked to Alex Scott as well.
Jones is also much better than him.
Sweeting is of course right about Jones and the stats. But there is also the eye test, Curtis is excellent with the ball and absolutely can shine as part of a midfield three. Apart from Gravenberch (who has the edge on him as a defensive midfielder if he can be positioned deeper like 24-25) and Wirtz (who is unsurpassed in our squad) there aren’t any players who should be starting in midfield ahead of him. So if he wants to leave because Slot (and you it would seem 
) don’t rate him then I understand that but I’d hope now we’d be able to convince him - move mountains if necessary - to stay as we won’t be able to replace him with better. TBH, I’d sell any other midfielder (excluding Wirtz if you call him that) including Dom before I’d let Curtis go. Also given that we need reinforcements in numerous areas, letting Curtis go this summer seems nonsensical.
No chance would you. No non Liverpool fan is saying what you are.
I don´t write off. I just know it doesnt mean that much without the context of their play.
Well actually I said I´d keep him. In fact he´d be the last midfielder I would get rid of due to his versatility and being English, and that I don´t really rate our other midfielders.
I said he´s a good player, but calling him a top midfielder is just way OTT. The eye test tells you is not that. I notice key passes was not on that list..
It’s not for Vitinha either.
Vitinha´s being significantly higher.
But again, whether that is particularly important or a good stat is also debatable.
Vitinha’s key passes per 90 is 0.35.
Jones’ is 0.37.
If you don’t think its an important or good stat then why bring it up?
No way either of their key passes is that low. I´ve seen around 1.4 for Vitinha and 1 for Kones. I don´t buy your stats.
Because it´s a passing stat Jones doesn´t score highly on and wasnñt mentioned.
I think the question for me is, if we sold Jones for £35m and bought Wharton for £100m is that really a £65m improvement to the team or could that £65m be better spent elsewhere.
I just don’t see a two of Wharton and Gravenberch being a natural fit as a pair. In fact, if we’re thinking it’ll nominally be a 4-2-3-1 type set up who from our current midfield is best suited in that 2 with Wharton?
And is that a £65m problem we want to make for ourselves this summer?
You’re certainly correct in that it depends on who is compiling the data as Key Passes have to interpreted its not as clear as an assist or goal etc.
From what I can tell DataMB, which I use, considers a key pass as a pass that leads to a chance. Footystats, which is I assume is where you saw the 1.4 vs 1.0 has a more broad definition.
I think 100 mil is too much for Wharton (though probably could be the fee)
The thing is, where elsewhere? What stand out candidates do we have for any position?
In your view who or what type of player does fit Gravenberch? I consider him a bit obsolete but curious your view.
Yes, it´s partly why I place very little confidence in stats in football.
Still a subjective factor and it´s almost impossible to measure actualy quality of a pass with the many factors. I know they´re all the rage nowadays.
I think that’s the wrong conclusion but stats need to be either contextualized or compared to what we see visually.
In the case of Jones and the eyetest hes clearly our best midfielder in possession. He keeps the ball best, he retain possession best. He’s the hardest to press.
Then compare him to other top midfielders in the PL. Players like Rice, Anderson etc I think he’s obviously better at those things than they are too.
So all in all the stats support the eye test. He’s one of the best in possession players in the league, one of the best ball retainers - and no one we’ve been linked to would be in improvement in these areas.
That’s sort of my point. You’re strongly advocating for a bloke who we’ll probably have to pay a huge premium on when we’ve got a lot of midfield options but none that seem a natural fit with Wharton.
I don’t think Wharton is good enough to rebuild your midfield around. Saying Gravenberch is obsolete a year after he won PL young player of year seems awfully dismissive of the talent we have in favour of someone you’re admitting would be over priced at what we’d have to pay.
Right now I don’t really know how our midfield fits together. I’m genuinely intrigued to see what Iraola does and I’m not against anyone leaving really if it helps bring him what he needs and better balance. I just think if you brought in Wharton you probably need at least one more to come in to work alongside him and that means two probably have to go. That’s a lot on top of what we’re already doing.
Bloody hell, football is a game of passing the ball (among other things),
Is it really THAT difficult to find decent passers in midfield?!
But none of them are a natural fit with anything. That is kind of what I am asking. Forgetting Wharton, who suits Gravenberch? Or Szoboslai?
Well Phil Foden won it twice and he seems pretty obsolete.
No that was a genuine question. Who do we buy elsewhere? Who are these real standout players? I can´t think of any but maybe you can.
And yes, I´d be happy for us to replace both our starting midfielders behind Wirtz. Absolutely. We´ve ended up with a bunch of jack of all trades who don´t protect the back four that well, don´t run a game with the ball and don´t create.
You´d think so but they have all been told for a decade to pass it simple and keep the ball. That´s why they all have high pass completion switching the ball slightly forward to their full backs or passing it to their centre backs.
The true midfield stars take risks to get the ball into their attacking players.
We essentially still have a title winning midfield in place.
It maybe needs a tweak but a coach who can actually implement some structure and shape using those we have will give us a notable improvement in there.
