Cool. If you just dismiss any evidence or stats others provide as not reliable because they don’t align with your perspective then there’s no point.
It doesn’t make you right, it makes debate pointless.
Apologies if I interpreted “I don’t rate our other midfielders” as meaning you thought they were shit. I’ll assume there’s a significant enough difference in your mind to call what I said disingenuous but feel free to save us all the explanation of what that is.
Well there is no debate. You flat out refuse to suggest any possibilities other than NOT WHARTON
I already said exactly what I think so no need for you to assume.
The Netherlands are a top tier international side. They have a top ten league in world football and still produce some of the best talent going.
Are they the best? No.
Are they as good as they have been in the past? No.
Are they better than all but a handful of teams from around the world? Yes
I can’t believe it’s even remotely debatable to suggest you have to be of a good standard to start for them.
It wasn’t the core reason - as @Limiescouse pointed out, if it were, it would have also been an issue the previous season when Trent wasn’t playing.
Well. Trent missed 5 league games as far as I can see, and we lost 2 of them.
As well as our Plymouth FA game (lost), Newcastle final game (lost) and the only CL game we lost except PSG, against PSV.
We won a few games he missed of course but we lost quite a few, so maybe it was.
If you go back a further year to when Bradley first broke into the team, back it was still ;argely the same midfield Trent only started 25 games in the league. Bradley started in all almost all of those, which is more than enough of a sample to test how integral Trent was to our midfield being able to play football. In those games we won 8, drew 2 and lost only 1 (by my count).
But even in Slot’s first season, Trent didn’t start in 10 games, a full 1/4 of the season. A season when we fucking romped to the title in near historic speed.
We have seen plenty of this side without Trent in it and it functioned completely fine prior to this year when everything went to shit
Potentially but the season after when we actually won the league less so as I showed and this last season. I think that´s enough evidence to suggest Koptician may have a point. And we went out the cups in the games Trent didn´t play in the season before.
My personal contention is that we could get away with that midfield while we had Van Dijk, Ali and Salah being the best in the world as well as Trent´s creativity (and Robbo´s) but as the stars faded and were sold, we are seeing more and more what our midfield can do.
Trent started only 28 league games that season. That is a full quarter of a league campaign, one in which we won the title in near record time, where we had to get buy without him. Either we made outrageous levels of accommodation to mask how integral his passing was in allowing our subpar midfield to look adequate, or maybe their struggles last season were down to something bigger.
That’s surely not an argument you’d really stand behind? This is the side that lost to Plymouth. Any attempt to suggest this demonstrates the singular importance of Trent’s passing to our midfield being able to function is not one that can be taken seriously
I think the first half of that is a reasonable argument in principal…limitations in some areas of the pitch can be masked by hyper performers in others. But you also describe big drop offs in performance across lots of areas of the pitch. That doesnt seem a helpful context for the midfield to be able to thrive with that many problems across other areas of the pitch. Right?
I think it’s fair to say we have good players in midfield. I also think many underestimate just how poorly Slot had the team set up last season. With the structure and discipline that Iraola should bring we will already be better off. Grav will be just fine in a double pivot (if that’s even how we set up). Who plays alongside him and what qualities that player needs is up for debate. Macca should be sold. Dom is a curious one. While he was our best player last season and he brings a lot to the team, it is hard for me to see where he plays. Can’t play the 10 (Wirtz) and I don’t think he’s suited to the double pivot. That said, I think he will play a pivotal role in an Iraola midfield with his work rate and pressing ability. His free kicks speak for itself. It is interesting to think about where we will get our creativity from. Wirtz is the obvious choice, and I think he takes a massive step up this season. We also have the opportunity to find someone on the right wing who can provide some of that creativity. It will be very interesting to see what happens.
Add to that the several games he played poorly in and was roundly criticized, to the point where the manager had to come out in defence of him.
Not sure why people have to disparage our players in other to make a nonexistent point.
PSG and their fucking wingers. Didn’t someone mention him the other day?
What do you mean only 28 though? That´s the vast majority of games plus whatever sub appearances he made. You also know i´m sure that things like form and momentum are factors so it´s hard to really attribute some games to anything (which may work for your point rather than mine too)
And regarding the integral comment. Surely that suggests you´re agreeing with my theory (in fairness you do say that later on that it´s reasonable), that it´s not just the Trent factor, but it was A factor. I´d always put Mo, Virg and Ali as more important carry players.
Well on the Plymouth point. Fair enough. We all include stuff when it supports our point even if we know it´s a bit dubious so you are right perhaps.
As for your last point, absolutely, and it puts more emphasis on the midfield needing to be capable of really top quality. And ours isn´t and hasn´t been for a long time. Good players but limited.
You use the word problems but I believe you rate Gakpo much higher than I do, and we had Hugo and still a reasonable ish Salah, so it´s not like in theory our front 3 was suddenly Fulham´s. Surely our midfield should still have enough there to deliver to them? Can we also attribute our attack´s struggles to what they had behind them? Could be argued. Are they problems as such or just not the level we had before? Similarly, Kerkez, Van Dijk and Konate should be quite a solid back 3 of the 4.
Perhaps I´m kinda interpreting your comment as confirmation bias but as I see it that it does fit what I am claiming.
I think you raise the question I was asking and good pooints.
Who would you pair with Grav? Not necessarily from us, but what type of player fits with him in your view?
On the rest, the problem is, where does Wirtz play if Dom is in the 10 and if Dom is in the midfield 2 behind, does Wirtz get much of the ball or does he struggle to get on it like this season?
If Iraola uses the same system as he did at Bournemouth. I’d prefer to see Grav taking on the Scott role in that system and being partnered with someone that can be a mobile defensive screen beside him. A Camara, Sangere or other new signing.
It’s possible, if we don’t make that sort of mobile defensive screen, Grav might be used as that role beside someone else taking on the Scott role. Jones or Szoboszlai, if Iraola feels he can coach Szoboszlai to play that position.
If Grav can improve his passing I think Iraola will love his ability to progress the ball with his turns and movement with the ball at his feet.
Players not a standout when we bought them, Salah, Mane, Robbo, Firmino, Virg, Alli, Fabinho, Hendo, Gini
Need I go on and that can go for many players, look at Vitinha, failed at Wolves.
What people also forget is that Trents season under Klopp his passing, assists and XA was way under what he had done previously, he was shackled by Arnes tactics.
I also agree largely with Rab, our midfield and team looked a tactical shambles under Arne last lasts season and they were playing more to some kind of possession metric rather than given freedom to pass and progress the ball.
I hope all players and aspects of play will improve under the new coaching team.
But what’s your point here?
I’m not saying world beaters. I’m just asking who would be clear players we should buy in his view.b
Id argue firmino fabinho Salah and virg were obvious buys tbh
This is pretty much how I view it. There will be games where you could have Grav as the holder, much like the title winning season, with a more attacking pair in front of him but there will also be times you probably want more of a dedicated defensive type and you could then play Grav alongside them.
I think the more classic DM type is what we’re missing and would bring the flexibility needed to play with different set ups in there. You probably don’t need one who’ll play every game but they’d allow you to play a variety of 6, 8 and 10 combos to suit opponents and game situations.
Gravenberch is then an option at 6 if you want someone who can do what he was doing season before last, a second shield if we’re backs to the wall or an 8 if we’re playing with one or two of those.
For me the crucial things for a DM in that situation is mobility, engine and the ability to create turnovers so we can get back to quick transitions before teams reset low blocks.
I thought João Gomes from Wolves had signed for Atletico Madrid but it appears that never went through. Was reportedly on our radar at one point.
We also had no pace in the team for the long pass outlet, which is why pace is important when considering our forward options.
