The Referees or The Twelfth Man

[norwegian_wood]

@AnfieldRdDreamer

What the Euros has shown clearly is how useful VAR is in the hands of competent officials. How many games now and so few bad decisions!

And when it’s used in a good way. We’ve seen it in the CL also, the way UEFA have used it is far superior to how it’s been done in the PL.

[Mascot]

@Limiescouse

I’ve said repeatedly that the calls for refs to have to explain their decisions is misguided, because if you ever get to hear a ref speak about the decision process they used you’d be left even more confused. To that point, Clattenburg was a guest on the Carra podcast recently and he, as he usually does, exemplified this perfectly. He repeatedly spoke about the need to balance his decisions…if you’ve given one decision one way then you have to give one the other way to even it up. He speaks about the games he remembers as his worst are not those where he got big decisions wrong, but when he failed to even up his decision count. He literally spoke not about worrying about getting the decision right, but worrying about the way he and his performance would be viewed if he didn’t balance them out.

And this is a guy considered the peak of the game. He’s fucking useless.

It confirms everything I think about Refs. I don’t believe in grand conspiracies, although there are obviously a fair few that hate us.

But I think consistently you have referees who approach decisions not really in the mindset of trying to get that decision objectively right, but how does the decision fit in with the narrative of the game of the circumstances surrounding it.

I’ll take a bad decision any day, but what boils my piss more than anything is when it’s obvious that a referee is doing their best to manage the story of a game rather than be a neutral arbiter of the rules.

[Rambler]

@Mascot

although there are obviously a fair few that hate us.

I read this comment on quite a few fan websites (other teams) and it is always the same names that crop up. For instance both sets of Manchester fans seem to hate Anthony Taylor and so do Evertonians. Everyone seems to hate Jon Moss too.

Now that means that they are either biased against all teams or just not very good or even handed. Which is it?

Perhaps they just hate their job and hate football and hate footballers in general.

[AnfieldRdDreamer]

@Rambler

Now that means that they are either biased against all teams or just not very good or even handed. Which is it?

Come across these statements so often. Just because everyone believes the same thing doesn’t mean they all have to be right or all wrong. United fans (after years of unnaturally favourable calls) may believe they are hard done by when correct but contentious calls don’t go their way or 70/30s against them aren’t suspiciously called in their favour like they are used to. That doesn’t mean the calls are bad or they are justified for feeling this way. It also doesn’t mean Liverpool fans are wrong for questioning decision after decision that is categorically wrong and called against them. Whether consciously (corruption/general dislike purposely influencing them) or unconsciously (bias and “officiating to the narrative”) Liverpool have time and time again been shown to get more incorrect calls against them than other teams. United more in favour. Some of this comes from the culture installed by fear of Ferguson that past now retired officials have confirmed used to influence them.

[Rambler]

@AnfieldRdDreamer

Liverpool have time and time again been shown to get more incorrect calls against them

Shown by who? By Liverpool supporters?

There was a study from some Welsh University Sports Science Department that I saw at the end of the season we finished top saying we got I think the most marginal VAR decisions in our favour but they weren’t saying they were right or wrong decisions.

[AnfieldRdDreamer]

@Rambler

Shown by who? By Liverpool supporters?

There was a study from some Welsh University Sports Science Department that I saw at the end of the season we finished top saying we got most marginal VAR decisions in our favour but they weren’t saying they were right or wrong decisions.

But that’s the point. The first season VAR came in, when it was brand new and more categorically correct or incorrect decisions (as opposed to contentious subjective decisions it was never meant for) we finally got a fair shake and won the bloody league (so good that season we probably would have won anyway but few extra undeserved points for City in the early stages, few points less than we deserved, keeping the race a lot tighter throughout, can’t make assumptions).

And by independent/neutral accounts of how many decisions have then appeared incorrect. Some shared in this thread from this season.

[AnfieldRdDreamer]

Here is what was called by VAR;

How VAR decisions affected every Premier League club in 2020-21

Dale Johnson

Dale Johnson

Dale Johnson

[Quicksand]

@Mascot

@Limiescouse

I’ve said repeatedly that the calls for refs to have to explain their decisions is misguided, because if you ever get to hear a ref speak about the decision process they used you’d be left even more confused. To that point, Clattenburg was a guest on the Carra podcast recently and he, as he usually does, exemplified this perfectly. He repeatedly spoke about the need to balance his decisions…if you’ve given one decision one way then you have to give one the other way to even it up. He speaks about the games he remembers as his worst are not those where he got big decisions wrong, but when he failed to even up his decision count. He literally spoke not about worrying about getting the decision right, but worrying about the way he and his performance would be viewed if he didn’t balance them out.

And this is a guy considered the peak of the game. He’s fucking useless.

It confirms everything I think about Refs. I don’t believe in grand conspiracies, although there are obviously a fair few that hate us.

But I think consistently you have referees who approach decisions not really in the mindset of trying to get that decision objectively right, but how does the decision fit in with the narrative of the game of the circumstances surrounding it.

I’ll take a bad decision any day, but what boils my piss more than anything is when it’s obvious that a referee is doing their best to manage the story of a game rather than be a neutral arbiter of the rules.

There are no grand conspiracies, I 100% agree on that.
There is bias evident though, as shown time and time again, again I believe we are in agreement.
The Oliver admission following the assault by Pickford supports your final point.

[Limiescouse]

@Mascot

But I think consistently you have referees who approach decisions not really in the mindset of trying to get that decision objectively right, but how does the decision fit in with the narrative of the game of the circumstances surrounding it.

Listen to Clattenburg’s comments about the Sterling penalty. In his evaluation, at no point does he discuss the rule or his interpretation of what happened. Instead his primary focus is on whether the ref will want to determine a game of this magnitude on such a trivial contact.

[Hope.in.your.heart]

Did he really say that? This is incredibly cowardly.

[AnfieldRdDreamer]

@Limiescouse

Instead his primary focus is on whether the ref will want to determine a game of this magnitude on such a trivial contact.

And this is where unconscious bias can have an absolutely massive impact. If the culture within the FA is that say United are the saviours of English football, the team that should be winning according to the narrative and your life isn’t going to be worth living if you make a mistake that has a negative effect on their game how much is going to go in their favour? How long is it going to take to stop? Likewise if Liverpool are jumped up lil gobshites always causing trouble and full of players like Suarez and Salah diving all over the place to get them more than they deserve how much are you going to be careful not to award to them? The way English officials work is awful and so wide open to accidental corruption and manipulation by media/powerful figures in the sport.

[sandsoftime]

Putting this here until @Quicksand has a pre-match thread in place…

Mike ‘Centre Stage’ Dean is the referee against Burnley…!
Those that remember… he was also the Showboat in the middle at same game last season, when he awarded that nonsensical penalty against us…

[mattyhurst]

As I said last week it’s what it is…

If we had been any way half decent in them it would be fine.

Dean is a shite ref probably among the worst we just have to make him count for zilch.

Burnley always get something lucky at Anfield that ludicrous foul on Alisson springs to mind.

It’s about ignoring it and playing our own game.

[Colossal_centre_back]

Pre and In Match Thread. Leeds United vs Liverpool. Elland Road.. EPL. Sunday Sept 12th. 1630 hrs

This is fucking pathetic refereeing. He didnt think that was a foul and was content to play on. He now sees the injury and without reviewing it then gives a red. That’s not how any of this is supposed to work. He’s come to the right outcome with completely the wrong process. What difference does it make you might ask? Well, you shouldnt need to have an leg broken to get a fucking call.

Just wondering on this, players go down to get decisions for the reason above then? Refs do not blow in your favor unless you go down. And if you do it, you’re labeled a diver. It’s a no win situation for the players, the honest ones at least.

[Kopstar]

Gillett to become first overseas PL ref

[Iftikhar]

Will there be a Hicks too

[mattyhurst]

The best a game can get

[Rambler]

Well I never

Liverpool supporters amongst the least critical fanbases when it comes to...

[Limiescouse]

We’re too busy saying all our own players are shit to worry about the ref

[Quicksand]

@Rambler

Well I never

Liverpool fans amongst least critical of referee decisions

We only criticise when we are correct!
Thank you.