Exactly…some people seem to have blinkers on. It was particularly bad when Bowen strolled past 3 midfielders to lay on a sitter for Fornals. That was particularly bad.
Is it the players, the system/set up or a poor performance by that group in general?
Personally I think it’s a little bit of each. The players are generally of better quality than 95% of the midfield groups we’ll come against in any season. Another quality option would be nice but most games what we have should suffice.
However, with the injuries we are having to play the same lads probably more often than we’d like, especially as none of them are as durable as Gini was. The injuries also mean rushing players back with little time to ease them in. We know Fabinho often needs a run to get up to speed. Thiago looks better after a run in the team and Ox has been nothing but a bit part player for a while now. Both of those things will have an impact on performance.
The system for me has always asked a lot of those three centre mids. The forwards do track back and are hard working but we do encourage them to press from the front and so if that gets bypassed you’re at the midfield pretty quick. We also ask the fullbacks to bomb on too meaning there’s a lot of space for those midfield three to cover. Teams that can get at that midfield quickly tend to have the best success against us. It’s not really the players fault, it’s a weakness in the set up that can be exploited but that set up is also hugely successful the majority of the time and no system is infallible.
West Ham have a good set up to exploit this. Solid across the back, big holding unit to shield and then quick attackers who can carry the ball once they can counter. Most teams struggle to do this but once we go chasing or the back four drops deeper the gaps open up and West Ham took advantage.
More players won’t help fix this on their own. But another better trusted first team option would help alleviate the need to keep playing the same guys or rushing players back. Changing the system might help with this but could detract from strengths elsewhere.
But perhaps it’s just a bad performance from a unit that is tired and has few fit options to help come in and give rest or a change. That first one gets disallowed as it would 99% of the time then the game is entirely different. That foul gets the red card it deserves and we’ve a man advantage for the next 85 minutes. I think both those things rattle us and that sense of injustice affects pretty much everyone. It’s a bad performance but it doesn’t mean we’re shit all of a sudden.
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Exactly, had a bad game, over stretched, over tired. Someone should have brought down Bowen and take a card. But they should have lost at least one player (and possibly more if the ref had of actually called fouls and given cards against them). But even with all that they scored 2 from 3 corners. That shouldn’t have been allowed to happen but they are the best side set up to do that to teams. I actually think it would have been harsh to rule out their first (although technically maybe letter of the law) but after that the second one shouldn’t have been allowed to happen. Get Konate on if needed if we are getting bullied at the back with set pieces and open play, which by then we were. Take Bowen out and get a card and suddenly its a 2-1 win. Take into account them losing players it could have ended up a wash out and we could have trounced them. Small margins type of game. Things could have gone so different.
Absolutely any midfielder with some flair that can play a bit further forward, can press, injury resilient, and doest disrupt team harmony.
I don’t care how old, how much, how foreign, how British, how ugly, how stupid, how tall, what sexual orientation, what race, what political affiliations, or what hideous club they have played for.
Edwards get it done and stop pining about your job, do your current job, you are currently like our defence, not dependable, or like our midfield, diminished in stature.
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Agree with what you say but we need a couple of durable, rapid midfielders. There are a fair few going around. I say couple because Milner is getting on and Keita and Ox can’t be relied upon for stretches. Ox is probably not far from exiting. We don’t even need the unicorn-type like Keita who is good at all aspects. Just be good at keeping possession, ability to get out of tight spaces with possession, fast, and not injury prone (not asking for much haha)
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The problem is that even players who had an impeccable attendance record at their previous club get injured here, purely because of the amount of shithousery with which referees allow our opponents to get away.
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Let at least one of Keita and/or Ox move on in 2022 summer and bring in Ryan Gravenberch with 12 months left on his deal as a player who can be a part of the squad and potentially play himself into a default starter role if he earns it. Quite competent at 6 and 8 with loads of potential.
In summer 2023 Henderson getting older, Thiago maybe moving on (along with Keita/Ox if either are still here) and go big on a star CM like we did with Alisson and VvD for their positions and bring Jude Bellingham in. Will be 20 with 2 years left on deal so maybe a more realistic deal by then although still massive fee probably.
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Sorry for not reading this thread but I presume that this discussion is about which CM will complement Jones/Elliott/Bellingham the best? For me that may not be a CM at all but someone like Saka would dovetail pretty nicely with those three.
Those we can’t do a lot about. I was thinking more like what happens to Keita and Ox (although his knee injury was a result of a challenge he had made) and to a lesser extend Thiago, Hendo, and Fab. Milner’s recent o e was purely due to him being overused.
If someone puts in a challenge like what Elliott had to endure there’s nothing you can do
Has that been confirmed? When we scored against Utd, he was sliding in behind the scorer and seemed to jar his knee. That’s what I suspect has triggered his most recent injury as he came off shortly after that.
Didn’t he get injured while trying to prevent a counter-attack down their right flank, overstretching his leg in the process? I think that was the moment of his injury if I’m not mistaken.
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Think Robbo gave him a dud pass and he did it on the turn trying to chase it back. Was definitely in play and not contact or fatigue related.
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Whilst I think Bellingham needs to be a long term target, next summer I’d be going for a no.6 who plays similar to Fabinho. Leaving Bellingham for the summer after when Hendo is going to start winding down his minutes.
Bellingham is certainly a more attack minded no.8 so seems that right side where Hendo, Elliot, Ox have all played seems a perfect fit for him.
I just feel having a no.6 who screens the defense like Fabinho does (when fully fit) seems to be such a key element of the glue that takes us from a cohesive team to one all at sixes and sevens.
Tchouaméni would be class, not seen enough of Morton or how Clarkson is doing at Blackburn to know if we have a good enough talent ourself.
You don’t have much or anything to see, Clarkson’s played 7 times for Blackburn so far, 328 minutes.
Me either. I saw someone on twitter who often talks about the academy players have this to say about him.
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Tyler Morton is some way off first team ready. If it wasn’t for the injury list in that area he wouldn’t be in the squad or realistically knocking on the door at this point.
We’ve got to remember how few of the kids who get a game or two in the League Cup or as emergency first team cover actually go on to make it here. The bar to get into the side is so high that nearly all of our academy players will fail to make the grade.
Countless times we’ve thought we’ve had players who we thought could be a squad option and they drift away to another club without making any meaningful contribution. Brewster, Wilson, Kent, Ibe, Kelly, Cody, Wisdom, Morgan, Ince, the list is almost endless. It’s not to say Morton will be the next one on that list but the odds are very much in favour of that being the case.
I don’t think there’s a centre midfielder in the academy right now who is anywhere close to making us think twice about going into the market should we need to replace Milner in the summer for example.
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Still think our next purchase will be more at #8, because we had/will have more changes/players leaving in those spots.
That player could of course cover the #6 role as let’s say a 2nd or 3rd option, like Gini did (sometimes good, sometimes not so good).
There is still Hendo there who can do a job, but we will lose Gini, Millie might follow and then probably one of if not both Keita/Ox. I think we will not want to be left only with Hendo as a proper dynamic/proven working CM. Though, with time, we’ll see how the likes of Jones and Elliott evolve. Not change totally because it’s clear they have their natural strengths. But like I said, “with time”. I believe we will eye more someone who those #8 spots rather than someone who only or mainly plays #6, so just sits there behind Fabinho.
Still a lot of this season to be played, I don’t think the people who make these decisions know exactly our CM names for next season, we’ll see.
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A lot will depend on who sign new contracts I think, my view is Bellingham for the no.8 spot and I don’t see him moving next summer so before that we bring in a more defensive orientated player i.e. No.6.
I guess I take it for granted any midfielder we bring in can play multiple positions, but I’d prefer our next one through the door to be a natural fit for no.6.
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I’d like Hendo, Thiago, Jones, Elliot, Fabinho, AOC and Keita oh wait! looks to me like we don’t need an 8 but a 6 could be handy, no?
I think a long term look needs to be taken.
There’s time to turn it around but as it stands Ox and Keita will have moved on sometime by summer 2023 when their current deals end.
Thiago probably isn’t viewing us as his final destination and I expect he will also move on Summer 2023 or 2024 on a free.
Milner is phenomenal but age is catching up with him and he’s playing less and less, this season or next is likely his last.
Henderson is getting older and more and more issues I think it’s universally accepted he’ll be fading from an automatic pick into a more Milner style role over the next few years.
Hopefully Fabinho isn’t going anywhere over the next 3-5 years as he’ll be essential as a new bridge is created from our current CM group to a future one.
Jones and Elliott shouldn’t be allowed to go anywhere, both have potential to earn themselves the status of automatic picks, probably in midfield (some small doubts on that but probable). Both young with over 10 years potentially ahead of them and emotional ties to the club. At the very least they will be perfectly serviceable, passionate, squad players (but probably more, especially Elliott).
So that’s the core of the CM we need to be sitting with in 2024 of Fabinho, Jones and Elliott with old man Hendo offering what Milner currently does.
Between now and then there’s a chance Ox or Keita could grasp a future here and be in there and youth prospects such as Clarkson, Morton, Bobby Clarke and Balagizi could develop and become a main option. Likely though at best we will get a cover option from these names like Morton is already doing.
For me that means at least 2 or even 3 will need to come in over the next 2 or 3 summers.
I’d definitely be doing the foundation work on Bellingham for Summer 2023 or 2024 as the big arrival that year. He’s a 6, 8 and 10 all rolled into one and absolutely perfect for that number 8 Wijnaldum used to fill and we’ve tried Hendo, Thiago and Naby in this year. He’ll bring more attacking ability to the role whilst also being perfectly solid at the “day job” and defensively adept.
Next summer if any of Keita, Ox or even Thiago were to move on I’d bring someone in who can be a defensively solid 8 but also cover the 6. Someone who needs to be good but not spectacular on the ball. They’d come in as a rotation option with opportunities to grow into a more integral role.
Used to see Gravenberch as this pick up but seen who his agent is and feel its less likely now. People don’t seem to like the “baggage” that would supposedly come with Adrien Rabiot (although I feel we’ve been here before with reputations, certainly if Klopp makes a move it’ll be fine). There’s some decent French lads that could be picked up cheap or even free that seem to be brimming with potential. Feel Tchoumani will expect to go somewhere with a promised starting role and big fee so not sure see that as believable. Boubacar Kamara seems believable especially if he’ll still be out of contract this summer.
I think I’d be happy (as an acceptable minimum) with a future selection of;
DM/6; Fabinho backed up by Kamara and Henderson.
LCM/8; Bellingham backed up by Henderson, Morton and Kamara.
RCM/8; Elliott backed up by Jones and Balagizi.
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